The definitive case here is Allegheny County v. Greater Pittsburgh ACLU.
It seems here that Christmas trees on public property are explicitly allowed, while creches and menorahs are permitted only when placed in close proximity to “secular” symbols like Christmas trees.
I agree with your conclusion, but I just want to clarify why you put “secular” in quote marks. Do you disagree with the court’s observation that “the Christmas tree [is] the preeminent secular symbol of the Christmas season” or that the “winter-holiday season . . . has attained a secular status in our society”?
Daniel
I certainly agree that it has to many people. However, while the Supreme Court characterizes the tree as a secular symbol, I see it as a symbol imbued with numerous meanings.
I put the word in quotes because it was the Court’s characterization of the Christmas tree.
Makes sense–and certainly symbols don’t exist in a vacuum. If I decide that the menorah symbolizes for me the many-headed dragon who will devour the world next St. Patrick’s Day, then that’s what it’s a symbol of, for at least one guy.
So when I say that the Christmas tree isn’t a symbol of the religious aspects of the holiday, I suppose I should clarify that such a message isn’t strongly associated with the tree in the same way that it’s associated with, for example, a creche. Nativity scenes set up by municipalities are a little bit irritating to me, but Christmas trees? Not so much.
Things like those telephone-pole decorations depicting trumpets are, I guess, technically religious symbols; but try though I might, I can’t muster the eensiest crumb of annoyance over them. Can anyone?
Daniel
Haven’t you heard the story?
Bethlehem was peppered with Frazier and Douglas Firs, heavy with new fallen snow and silver tinsel on that blustery December 24, 0000, when a red velvet clad Joseph Claus and his wife Mary rode into town in a sleigh pulled by eight reindeer. Mary made the Baby Jesus a bed of Frankenstein and mirth. They drank egg-nog, ate cookies and exchanged gifts. Which they laid out under a tree. From that point forward, the tree symbolized the Baby Jesus. Sheesh, next thing your gonna tell you don’t see how a chocolate rabbit symbolizes the resurrection and redemption and colored eggs the Trintiy.
I must be off my game, LHoD. We don’t ever agree on anything.
Tis the season, eh?
Hey, I just figured after three days in the tomb, Jesus was feling pretty frisky.
Daniel
You do at that, but it’s still wrong. As evinced by the fact that it is, after all, a Christmas tree. Christmas being a definite religious holiday. The supreme court screwed up, as I see it.
I think that Engel vs Vitali is a much better decision, for my money. Then again, I was lucky enough to have lunch a good few times with Steve Engel, so I’m a bit biased. Then again, no, not all of the opinions in the case agree with my views 100%. But I’m prepared to argue my views, not stick to case law.
And folks have every right to challenge that ruling in court, of course.
So do you agree, then, that a Christmas tree is not secular.
With a symbol which, in your own words “has everything to do with observence of a religious holiday”… how does putting up that religious symbol not ammount to an endorsement of that religion? Analogy is always suspect, but if we treat the Christmas tree as, for lack of a better term, a logo for the religious holiday how is it any different from the government putting up a sign for Joe’s Crab Shack?
If, for instance, the local government put up a pentagram with a goat’s head in it, would it be viewed as an endorsement of Satanism? It has secular aspects as some rock music demonstrated, after all…
The whole logic of the opinions that you quoted seems loopy. A secular symbol of the Christmas holiday? How can you have a secular symbol of a religious holiday? Methinks someone at the SCOTUS needs a lesson on symbolism. 
Not including religion in the government would be hostile to religion? How? It would be detrimental to religion? How? I don’t see any valid reason why we shouldn’t allow total religious freedom in the private sector and total absence of any religious symbolism in the governmental sector. If your religion needs government support, there’s a problem going on. Right?
Well, a symbol of Christmas. It is, after all, a Christmas tree. And Christmas is a religious holiday.
It doesn’t have to explicitly be linked to any specific belief, it’s a symbol of a religious holiday. Likewise, the Magen David doesn’t inherently symbolize any specific religious belief, but it is a religious symbol.
The US government has said many silly things over time. Besides, even if it has secular aspects, it’s still a religious holiday.
Christmas Trees - Holiday Trees - Who Cares Trees
To the woman in the linked article - What do you expect? You’re in Raleigh. If you think “Jesus is the reason…” is offensive, then just be glad you weren’t around fifteen years ago when that was posted on every single marquee (it seemed at the time). If you think a private business owner posting a statement of his beliefs is bad, then I dare you to sit through five minutes of a sermon at Mt. Olivet. Most of all - a hearty “Fuck You” for validating Bill O’Reilly.
As for how to how I think we should celebrate Christmas in this country: We should celebrate Christmas the way our forefathers did - by sneak attacks on the British!
All together now: %Oh, you’d better watch out.%
Your repeating this over and over doesn’t make it true. Forgive me, but do you live in Israel, or am I mistaking you for someone else? If you do live in Israel, you may be unfamiliar with how Christmas is celebrated in the United States.
Essentially, it’s celebrated in two entirely distinct ways. So much so that it’s like two different holidays that happen to fall on the same day. The Rudolph, the Santa, the presents, the tree, the eggnog, the feast, the lights, the fruitcake: none of these have any tie to Jesus. The carols, the church services, the creches, the pageants–these are all directly tied to the religious story.
Some people celebrate only the religious aspects of the holiday (although they’re very few). Some people celebrate only the secular aspects of the holiday (there’s a few more of us). Most Americans celebrate both aspects of the holiday.
But the existence of the crossover group does nt negate the fact that many of us celebrate only a secular Christmas. Its name is no more significant to us than the English farewell, “Goodbye.”
Daniel
This came out snarkier than I intended; sorry about that!
Daniel
I didn’t read this entire thread, only the OP. After so many of us insisting there is no war on Xmas, after insisting it all was only being waged by one guy on one TV channel, we get this. All I can say is “Awww shit”.
It is more akin to a recognition that some citizens of the Republic hold the day holy, and a gesture of respect to them. In the same way, the Postal Service commemorated Eid recently with a stamp.
A Christmas tree in a school lobby isn’t support for a religion. First of all, no faiths benefit materially. The Baptists are not favored over the Catholics. The existence of the tree in no way precludes other religious traditions from being similarly marked (like with the menorah display in Pittsburgh).
It is also a Federal holiday. It has been such since the Grant administration. And I note that is is a federal holiday called Christmas, not Winter Holiday or some other nonsense.
Where I grew up, the school districts would show due respect for the traditions of many of its students by making the first day of deer season an official school holiday. By doing so, they did not require that you go out hunting. They just facilitated the process for the great many students who wished to do so.
The rules in place for this holiday don’t force people to participate, they just smooth the way for those of us so inclined. And yes, that includes Christmas trees in the courthouse square, because the vast majority of us want them there. And, as a self-governing people, we set the rules.
And the picture on the one dollar bill isn’t a symbol of the first President of the United States because George Washington wasn’t made of paper and ink. A heart isn’t a symbol for love because love is not a piece of red construction paper. The fasces isn’t the symbol of the power of the Roman Senate and/or fascism because the Roman Senate and fascism aren’t axes bundled with sticks. The lamp isn’t a symbol of the Unitarian Church because the Unitarians aren’t fire worshipers. And wedding rings aren’t symbolic of marriage because marriage isn’t a band of gold with a precious stone set in it.
Yeesh, I must be givin’ off some weird vibes here. Luc thought I was British, you think I’m Israeli. Meanwhile, I was born and raised just outside Manhattan.
But Christmas is a religious holiday.
(mwahahah)
But most of those are symbols of Christmas, even those that don’t directly have any ties to Jesus. Christmas has direct ties to Jesus. So things that have direct ties to Christmas…
All true. But the fact that some people don’t observe the religious nature of a holiday doesn’t mean that the holiday isn’t religious, merely that they’re not observing it.
Likewise, the fact that many people celebrate the holiday in a secular fashion does not negate the fact that it’s a religious holiday.
Many people celebrate the fourth of July by getting blindingly drunk, but that doesn’t mean that the 4th isn’t about the birth of our nation.
I am going to differ with you on this. For Christmas specifically, there is both a religious holiday, celebrating the birth of Christ or something, I am not actually clear on what. And there is a secular, consumerist event.
For me, the Christmas tree has no religious symbology at all. Crosses and angels, those are religious. Nativity scenes, definitely. But Santa Claus and the Christmas tree have no religious significance. It’s not that I am not observing the religious nature of the holiday, it is that my secular event happens to coincide with a religious holiday.
Obviously, your experience differs. But I think you would be better served going after the “jesus is the reason” and nativity scenes as endorsements of religion, instead of the Holiday Evergreen.
Unless you are prepared to claim that Santa Claus is also emblematic of the religious holiday?
Have direct ties to the pagan Yule.
And on the fourth of July there is the celebration of our nation’s birth and our freedom, and BBQ’s.
But that fact that some observe it in a secular manner does not change the fact that it’s a religious holiday.
I think that the government should not be in the business of putting up any religious symbols, ever. Even if some folks use them for other things.
And the crucifix has direct ties to a Roman method of execution, thus, it’s not a religious symbol. Yes?
Maybe you aren’t.
: continues building his altar to Ifrit :
Anyways, I think I’ve said what I can say on this topic. I do not believe that secular use of a symbol of a religious holiday negates the religious nature of that symbol; it simply adds another facet. I do believe that people should have absolute freedom of religion in their private lives and that the government should be absolutely free of any religious symbolism at all. I will, of course, be the first to admit that these are my beliefs and that it is quite possible to interpret the situation differently and to believe in a different level of seperation between church and state.
I also agree that the woman in the OP’s article is a silly cow who is only adding ammunition to those whose persecution complex is largely based on a strawman. Thanks lady, for helping that ol’ scarecrow dance.
So, with that being said I’ll bow out for the time being and pr’aps return to this thread later. Happy Holidays and best wishes to all. (mwahahahahah)
Okay, if you want to tilt at those windmills, you go right ahead. I still think you would be better served going after the overtly religious symbols, rather than the secularized ones. For me, as a lifelong atheist, I’m not bothered by the symbols of secular Christmas. And I don’t think you’re going to make much headway if you go after them as well. Start with getting the nativity scene off the courthouse lawn. I’ll support you on that, as I think many others will.
Yes, you can trace a historical descent of the Santa Claus figure to St. Nicholas. Does that make Santa Claus a religious symbol? Or is the far greater incidence of secular use worthy of consideration? How far are you willing to take this, and do you care that you are losing more support the further you go away from clearly religious symbols and a clear-cut case for endorsement?
On preview, it looks like you have exited. Dang.
