So, are you opposed to turkey and cranberry sauce at schools right before Thanksgiving? I would bet lots of money that the majority of Thanksgiving celebrations in this country are preceded by a prayer of thanks.
Easter bunnies are A-OK with me, as are easter egg hunts. St. Patrick’s Day parades don’t bother me at all. Hallowe’en began as a religious holiday, and a lot of fundamentalists treat it as an occasion for religious hocus pocus (see the phenomenon of Hell Houses).
I just don’t see much value in its doing so, since that impression isn’t shared even by most atheists, and the government’s going this far out of its way would be a big old bummer for a lot of people. I don’t think that your impression is accurate: if you get the impression that the government is supporting/endorsing a religion by having a Christmas tree, it’s your impression taht is mistaken in my opinion, and the government can’t be accountable for mistaken impressions held by a tiny minority of its citizens.
But no, I am not. A great many meals are proceeded by prayers of thanks, but I don’t think that schools should stop serving lunch. If a sizeable percentage of Christian churches adopted Thanksgiving as a Christian holiday then yes, I’d have to at least reevaluate what I think the relationship between federally funded institutions and Thanksgiving should be.
Still, it’s what I believe and what I think should happen. The fact that it never will within my lifetime is just a minor snag in my master plan.
See what I mean about nobody being convinced? I probably shouldn’t have even brought it up, as I realize that I’m not about to convince anybody and that my beliefs are somewhat extreme. Ah well.
To what degree would they need to adopt it as a Christian holiday? Next Thanksgiving, start a poll in IMHO of churchgoers, asking how many of them had a sermon before or after Thanksgiving with a Thanksgiving theme. I’m guessing the majority will say they did.
Folks whose children are in Christian private schools: do your kids dress up in Puritan costumes around Thanksgiving? I’m guessing so: I know I did when I went to a Christian preschool.
Your standard means less fun for everyone, without any real benefit that I can see. My standard preserves the fun parts while separating out the religious parts, and in all the cases I can think of, it sets up a pretty bright line between the two.
What real benefit comes from your standard instead of mine?
By the way, I have now come to the conclusion that I was overzealous in my desire to ensure the seperation of church and state and had not properly considered the secular aspects of some people’s celebration of Christmas. I was also somewhat ignorant of it, as I was raised in a Jewish household and wasn’t aware of the nuance surrounding Christmas. I’m still rather in the dark about 'em. I don’t think I’m totally wrong in my desires to seperate church and state, but I’m not quite sure where the line is to be drawn. Suffice it to say that, for now, I’ll withdraw and meditate on the issue a bit and try to synthesize a new position. I doubt I’ll be posting to this thread again as I’m going to have to chew on this for a while.
Woot Saturnalia! I certainly enjoy talking about this issue with you; it’s always great to talk to someone who stays on-topic and is civil and intelligent. Happy meditations!
If you are Christian, and someone wishes you “Happy Channukah”, it is wrong to be offended.
If you are Christian, and someone offers their hand and greets you with “Salaam Alaikam (sp?)”, it is wrong to be offended.
If you are Christian, and are invited to a Muslim wedding, and are asked to remove your shoes upon entering a mosque, and you are offended, you are wrong.
If you are Christian, and in the home of an atheist, you see a irreverent, satirical copy of DaVinci’s The Last Supper, it is wrong to be offended.
If you are Jewish, Muslim, or atheist; and see a “Jesus is the reason for the season” sign in public, it is wrong to be offended.
…
I mean – yeah, you can go ahead and be offended all you like. But I offer no sympathy for you “plight”.
Lovely. Can you email the coworker back and point out how disrespectful the tradition is to Jesus, how it substitutes a pagan symbol of winter (i.e., a tree that stays alive and growing through the coldest months) for the birth of the savior, how it detracts from the real meaning of the holiday, and how it’s a pernicious influence on the reason for the season that should be wiped out? Could you out-offenderati them?
I don’t know if it’d work, but some people need grinchifyin.
Europeans had a winter holiday for making spirits bright during the bleak part of the year.
The church wrestled with discouraging these holidays, but eventually decided that people could keep their customs if they put a Christian gloss on it.
Flash forward to an age where church is officially severed from state, and Christians are griping about some people choosing to continue to use the customs without paying lip-service to Christianity?
Tough titty. Winter festivals fill a need. Decking the halls, filling faces, getting drunk off your ass, ritualized kissing, exchanging gifts… these are all natural ways to cope with being snowed in, and aren’t the exclusive property of Christians.
Don’t make us join the old cults to justify it. I don’t want to memorize a bunch of crap about the Roman or Norse pantheons in order to have a good time over the holidays, any more than I want to pretend to subscribe to Christian dogma.
Nobody’s going to get in the way of people’s religious observations. At least, nobody should – the woman in the OP is a nitwit. That being said, Jesus is not the reason for the season. Jesus is riding on the coat-tails of a basic human need to fight off seasonal depression. If you need to have him around, no worries.
For a lot of people, twinkly lights, the smell of spruce, and alcohol in quantity do the job nicely, thanks. That’s a more established tradition than Christmas mass. There’s no reason to artificially marry them.
Very well put! If being an atheist meant giving up eggnog, presents, pine trees in the house, stockings, and all the rest of the trappings, I’d be really sad. Hell, I even prefer the religious Christmas carols to the secular, not because of the lyrics, but because the tunes are so much more beautiful.
Yet the only time I think about Jesus over Christmas as when a carol jars me into it, or a talking head.
I just want to say, I tend to use “Happy holidays” and “Merry Christmas” interchangeably. No matter what somebody said to me it wouldn’t offend me. Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, Happy Kwanzaa, whatever. I’m fine with it because it’s a gesture of goodwill.
However, if I were ever to encounter anybody who was actually offended by a particular greeting, you can bet I’d go out of my way to say it to them at every opportunity. Rude? Probably, but it’s just my way of saying “loosen your ass and get a clue, dumbfuck.”
That goes for zealous atheists too. ( and just as a reminder, I’m agnostic and separation of church and state is a part of our society I hold in extremely high regard, but there are times when it’s okay to say, “eh, the manger scene’s okay, there’s a big menorah down the street too. Everybody just relax.”)
This would be a great bumper sticker.