To the Critical Mass idiots: Watch where you're going!

[not_alice]

[quote=“Miller, post:59, topic:483834”]

Critical Mass doesn’t make me drive more safely: I’m already a safe driver. What Critical Mass does is make me more sympathetic to the idea that bikes shouldn’t be allowed on the same roads as cars at all. [\quote]

That is a risk in any persuasive campaign. So far you remain a safe driver, so good for you.

But if you ever change your mind, you are welcome to start a counter campaign to change the longstanding vehicle codes everywhere. use whatever methods you like, this is America, you are entitled to it.

But you won’t be able to change them I predict - cyclists will always be entitled to the roads in the same way as cars, with exceptions for limited access highways (and not always there, there are places in California where bikes are allowed on I5 and I280 that I know of) and some other local places with special circumstances.

That leaves you with the choice to be a safe driver regardless if how hard you campaign to change the laws, or be an asshole. It is your choice, at least until you get the laws changed, because right now, they DO allow bikes on the road.
And I’m willing to bet that every time Critical Mass shuts down traffic in the middle of rush hour, and curses out drivers who haven’t actually done anything except be in a car, more and more people are moved to the same position. So, by all means, keep having your Critical Mass rallies. Like you said, soon enough it will lead to a resolution of the problem. Just don’t be surprised if it’s not the one you want.

Oh, and you really should consider wearing a helmet when you ride. Although judging by your posts here, I suppose it’s a bit late for that advice to be really effective.

Oh ha ha ha.

I never ride without a helmet, on road or off.

[Derleth]

Let’s say Jack is an unsafe driver. He handles things well enough when there’s only cars and motorcycles on the road but bikes and Jack are the kind of thing high insurance premiums are made of. (Note that that may apply in other contexts.) Now, in Jack’s area bikes are usually quite rare so Jack doesn’t encounter them often enough to mention, meaning everyone stays safe.

Then the bikers in Jack’s area stage a CM. Now Jack is forced to confront his inability to deal with bikes and he doesn’t like it one bit. What do you think Jack is going to think? Will he blame himself or Critical Mass and all of the bikes on the road all of a sudden? Will he think Critical Mass is a success for forcing him to come to terms with his inadequacy or a dangerous stunt pulled off by morons who don’t have the sense to stay out of his way?

Put yourself in Jack’s shoes and tell me Critical Mass is likely to be a success.

[Ludovic]

@not_alice

That leaves you with the choice to be a safe driver regardless if how hard you campaign to change the laws, or be an asshole.

Why can’t we be both, like the late Earl Warren who was known to be a very safe driver but yelled out the window at bikes not obeying traffic laws not really

[magellan01]

I ride a bike, bikes actually, at least a few times a week. I’ve had a few very close calls, with one guy actually intentionally trying to run me off a windy mountain road with a drop-off. But, really, the CMers are a bunch of self-important shit heads. We should have a law that if someone is solely and intentionally preventing you from continuing in your car, you should be able to run their fucking asses over. These punks should pray that I never hear from a doctor that I have three weeks to live, because on day 20 I’m buying a 1971 Fury III, or something bigger if I can find it, and I’m going to insert myself in the front row as those shit heads come by. And then, glory and justice in one final push of the gas pedal.

Either that or I’m going to sky dive.

[not_alice]

@Derleth

Put yourself in Jack’s shoes and tell me Critical Mass is likely to be a success.

Jack will think, if he is a rational man at all, that he needs to adjust his behavior to new realities, or be prepared to suffer the consequences.

These may be as simple as avoiding driving during the 3 hours a month that critical mass occurs, or may be as complex as addressing the reasons why he can’t coexist with bikes.

The consequences may range from inconvenience to loss of driving privileges, financial ruin and prison depending on how de drives when bikes are around.

Yelling “hey you kids off my yard and out of my road” is not really an option unless he is rolling the dice on the consequence meter I mentioned, or is not rational enough to understand the rules of the road.

I think your hypothetical Jack will do just fine when he starts to realize the population of road users has changed. No one wants to hit a person on a bike, but lots of people drive in a way to place themselves in a position where they are more likely to do that then they would otherwise prefer.

[not_alice]

@magellan01

I ride a bike, bikes actually, at least a few times a week. I’ve had a few very close calls, with one guy actually intentionally trying to run me off a windy mountain road with a drop-off. But, really, the CMers are a bunch of self-important shit heads. We should have a law that if someone is solely and intentionally preventing you from continuing in your car, you should be able to run their fucking asses over. These punks should pray that I never hear from a doctor that I have three weeks to live, because on day 20 I’m buying a 1971 Fury III, or something bigger if I can find it, and I’m going to insert myself in the front row as those shit heads come by. And then, glory and justice in one final push of the gas pedal.

Either that or I’m going to sky dive.

I see this kind of post a lot of places too.

I generally discount 100% that the poster is a regular rider in traffic.

Seriously, the logic is “I have almost been run off the road when a car thought I was in the way, so when I think you are in the way, I want it to be legal to run you off the road”.

Sure, whatever. Talk to your elected representatives and try to pass that law, like I said. If you can get it done, more power to you. But until then, drive safely no matter what the road throws your way.

And just for the record everyone you just threatened to run over is someone’s son or daughter, brother, sister, father, mother. They are your neighbors and people you encounter everywhere every day. If you are that that hateful towards people that you meet that if you are inconvenienced maybe once during a 3 our period once a month if you happen to be in the area driving that you are prepared to run them over without personal guilt or shame, if only the law allowed it, then I would say you have other, errr, “issues”.

BTW, if you were going downhill on a mountain road like that, you should have taken the lane. If you don;'t have the skill to handle that (and its OK, lots don’t, it takes courage until you get used to it!) then you probably shouldn’t be riding where you are past your skill level. Just like skiing or snowboarding or anything else extreme.

When you are in the lane (for me on the roads I am thinking of I would tend to stay just left of center) you will be a lot safer. The cars won’t try to pass, and you have more room for error on turns on both sides then if you tried to stick to the right where there is narrow or no shoulder with flotsam and jetsam. The drop off doesn’t look so bad from there.

You would actually be doing the drivers a favor by removing the temptation to pass unsafely.

Personally I don’t mind riding a downhill that way, but I ain’t taking anyone along for a ride if they don’t already get it. We will take the long way home if that is the case.

[not_alice]

@Ludovic

Why can’t we be both, like the late Earl Warren who was known to be a very safe driver but yelled out the window at bikes not obeying traffic laws not really

Judging from the current state of things, many drivers are assholes. I have never had one yell out the window, in a safe or other fashion, to correct me on my knowledge and application of traffic laws and be right about it.

Usually it is more like “hey you get off the road!” or some slight variation.

Unless they are verbally threatening, which happens to all riders eventually, I figure someone yelling at me is just acknowledging they know I am there, and I figure that is a good thing in the grand scheme of things. If they can do that and drive safely, that is fine by me.

But if they are deliberately trying to startle me, or they honk their horn as they come up behind for what I perceive as no reason at all and they might perceive as letting me know they are there (yeah, I have been riding 40 miles today and I didn’t know there are cars on the road, thanks!) then they deserve what they get as they are being malicious and/or stupid and hence not driving safely according to the law.

I only hope what they get when they do that is not a rider startled enough to lose control and put the bike down in front of the car. Does anyone’s life need to be ruined, cyclist or driver like that because the driver had to make a comment out the window or lean or even tap on the horn improperly?

I say no, no one deserves that fate. Please don’t drive that way.

[magellan01]

@not_alice

I see this kind of post a lot of places too.

I generally discount 100% that the poster is a regular rider in traffic.

Yet, you respond. But wait, you discount. But you respond. Gotcha.

@not_alice

Seriously, the logic is “I have almost been run off the road when a car thought I was in the way, so when I think you are in the way, I want it to be legal to run you off the road”.

It might be helpful if you paid closer attention to the squiggles the internet sends your way. I said if they are “solely and intentionally preventing you from continuing in your car,”. You know, like those douchebags in CM. If someone stopped me on the street and prevented me from leaving, or prevented me from leaving a store, I have every right to remove that person from my path.

@not_alice

Sure, whatever. Talk to your elected representatives and try to pass that law, like I said. If you can get it done, more power to you.

:rolleyes: Miller’s advice about the helmet is good, albeit, as he pointed out, a little late.

@not_alice

And just for the record everyone you just threatened to run over is someone’s son or daughter, brother, sister, father, mother. They are your neighbors and people you encounter everywhere every day. If you are that that hateful towards people that you meet that if you are inconvenienced maybe once during a 3 our period once a month if you happen to be in the area driving that you are prepared to run them over without personal guilt or shame, if only the law allowed it, then I would say you have other, errr, “issues”.

Cry me a river and sing Kumbaya. Stupid people have parents and families, too. Thanks for the newsflash. I’d venture to guess that you have relatives, too. Oh, and so do bullies, other idiots, thiefs, rapists, pedophiles and murderers. Not that any of that has anything to do with anything, but I thought I’d add to your font of trivia.

@not_alice

BTW, if you were going downhill on a mountain road like that, you should have taken the lane. If you don;'t have the skill to handle that (and its OK, lots don’t, it takes courage until you get used to it!) then you probably shouldn’t be riding where you are past your skill level. Just like skiing or snowboarding or anything else extreme.

And here we have that reading problem surfacing again, revealing you to be both pissy and preachy. I didn’t say I was going DOWN the hill, did I? Nope, I didn’t. Fact is, I was going UP the hill, and the guy was miffed that he had to wait for a break in the downhill traffic so he could pass. But just because HE was a giant dick and I’d love to find him and club him in the kneecap with a seven iron for ten minutes doesn’t mean I have any desire to punish in anyway drivers at large. Drivers like the those in the 60 or so other cars that courteously passed me on that same road that same day.

@not_alice

When you are in the lane (for me on the roads I am thinking of I would tend to stay just left of center) you will be a lot safer. The cars won’t try to pass, and you have more room for error on turns on both sides then if you tried to stick to the right where there is narrow or no shoulder with flotsam and jetsam. The drop off doesn’t look so bad from there.

How, oh HOW have I managed without your sage counsel all these years…

@not_alice

You would actually be doing the drivers a favor by removing the temptation to pass unsafely.

You would be doing you and everyone else a favor if you learned how to read.

[Derleth]

@not_alice

Jack will think, if he is a rational man at all, that he needs to adjust his behavior to new realities, or be prepared to suffer the consequences.

You’re a biker, right? Do you want to be the consequence he suffers?

[not_alice]

@magellan01

Yet, you respond. But wait, you discount. But you respond. Gotcha.

Maybe you are mistaken that this is a priovate conversatin between you and I. Because if it were, sure I would have ignored it as a likely troll.

But others are here, and so I let them know why. It wasn’t a response to you per se, as much as just a response.

It might be helpful if you paid closer attention to the squiggles the internet sends your way. I said if they are “solely and intentionally preventing you from continuing in your car,”. You know, like those douchebags in CM.

Oooo as a long time lurker and recent joiner, I see my first Pit opportunity to really let loose here!

But I decline.

Have you stopped and asked people if they were "solely and intentionally preventing you (I assume you mean yourself, magellen01, not me? Did they say yes? Did they also agree they are douchebags?

I thought not.

Then don’t attribute your opinion as fact and as the premise for your justification to have a law that allowed you to run them down.

If I didn’t see this kind of thing all the time, I’d think you are whooshing us. Sadly I don’t think you are. You are angry, and you imply there is only a very thin shred of conscience that keeps you from running people over on their bikes because you felt inconvenienced.

Great.

Like I said, go get that law passed.

While you are at it though, maybe a little anger management and defensive driving review classes are in order.

> If someone stopped me on the street and prevented me from leaving, or prevented me from leaving a store, I have every right to remove that person from my path.

Maybe maybe not but that is not the topic.

If the vehicle code where you are (or anywhere) allows that, then please provide a cite. You know better than to bring that kind of talk here

:rolleyes: Miller’s advice about the helmet is good, albeit, as he pointed out, a little late.

Maybe you will have read that I always wear a helmet.

Or maybe you did, and that is a threat?

Cry me a river and sing Kumbaya. Stupid people have parents and families, too. Thanks for the newsflash. I’d venture to guess that you have relatives, too. Oh, and so do bullies, other idiots, thiefs, rapists, pedophiles and murderers. Not that any of that has anything to do with anything, but I thought I’d add to your font of trivia.

Glad to know that your lack of humanity when inconvenienced knows no bounds when it comes to whom you would simply execute for inconveniencing you by running them over with your car. Thanks for sharing!

>And here we have that reading problem surfacing again, revealing you to be both pissy and preachy. I didn’t say I was going DOWN the hill, did I? Nope, I didn’t.

Reading comprehension or incomplete writing?

> Fact is, I was going UP the hill, and the guy was miffed that he had to wait for a break in the downhill traffic so he could pass.

Going up hill if you were in the lane, you probably should have let him pass, How steep was the incline, how fast were you going, why not simply pull over or off for the 5 seconds it takes for him to go by? I would do that on an uphill, it is simply worth it to have the clear path once traffic has gone by if nothing else.

>But just because HE was a giant dick and I’d love to find him and club him in the kneecap with a seven iron for ten minutes doesn’t mean I have any desire to punish in anyway drivers at large.

I get that.

You would rather punish other cyclists the same way he probably wanted to punish you.

Which is really at the heart of what I don’t get. Most experienced riders are MORE sensitive, not less, to the issues of bike vs car, especially after one or even several incidents like that. Yet you seem the opposite - you advocate a change of laws that would have allowed that guy to nudge you right over the drop off and be on his merry way.

I don’t get it, it doesn’t make rational sense, and that is why I discount it regardless of if you are going up hill or down.

>Drivers like the those in the 60 or so other cars that courteously passed me on that same road that same day.

I know there wasn’t much traffic out there that day, 60 cars in a day is a good day of riding almost anywhere indeed! But in the cities, where you find CM happening, a rider will have to manage interactions with 60 cars every 10 minutes, on a good day.

So in general, you can assume that the ratio in the city is already way better then 1 jerk driver for every 60 good ones. Maybe even by 3 orders of magnitude. Maybe even 4. But not enough that riders are not constantly at risk and will have, through now fault of their own, as I will give you the benefit of the doubt for on your uphill ride, to have an actual incident every few days. that rate is not even close to acceptable.

Every few years, that would be a good rate to aim for I think.

How, oh HOW have I managed without your sage counsel all these years…

I am sure you do as well as you can be expected to

You would be doing you and everyone else a favor if you learned how to read.

Funny thing is, like the OP, you write in a way to leave out the pertinent details.

And then you chastise me while not addressing my larger point to both of you, which is, if you think laws that are counter to the current and traditional rules of the road are called for, well, no one is stopping you from seeking to make that happen.

Go for it, like I said.

Just don’t write incomplete stories, posture and bluff about wanting to change laws to run over cyclists yourself if you don’t really mean it.

Either mean it, own it, and go for it, or take a deep breath and realize that it is bluster like that that gets riders killed regularly by clueless drivers. Maybe you are not quite clueless as an actual rider, and maybe that is the thread that keeps you hanging on the right side of venting your anger, but as you know, experienced riders are in the minority among drivers, and so they don’t have that thread, that last voice of conscience that makes them look and expect bikes all the time before making one crazy move after another, of which yesterday’s Seattle incident is only one of an endless series.

And don’t take things so personally, either from me, or the others you encounter on the road regardless of mode of propulsion. That is my wish for you.

[Hunter_Hawk]

@not_alice

his true ire is revealed - he doesn’t think bikes should be on the road because they annoy him, they slow him down, they are hard to spot (by him, I never seem to have that problem when I drive, and yes I see the same foolish riders with no lights or reflectors at night, sometimes even going the wrong way, somehow I manage to see the,m, so why can’t everyone else?) It is a choice to do so - if you know you might encounter stuff that you wish you didn’t, then either don’t drive, or drive in a way that you are prepared to handle the encounter. Your choice.

But don’t come on here complaining about CM when your real beef is the consequences of your own choice to not be aware of and/or follow the rules of the road as a driver, that’s what I say to the OP.

Hey, you left out the part where I take the limp and bleeding bodies of bicyclists whom I’ve viciously struck down, arrange them into compromising postures, and then post amusing photos on http://icanhasbikercorpse.com. Don’t forget that.

[magellan01]

@not_alice

Maybe you are mistaken that this is a priovate conversatin between you and I. Because if it were, sure I would have ignored it as a likely troll.

But others are here, and so I let them know why. It wasn’t a response to you per se, as much as just a response.

And this is what they called backpedaling. It usually kicks in one a poster realizes they been called for talking out of their ass.

@not_alice

Have you stopped and asked people if they were "solely and intentionally preventing you (I assume you mean yourself, magellen01, not me? Did they say yes? Did they also agree they are douchebags?

I thought not.

You think not. The roads exist as avenues of conveyance. To be used to to get from one point to another. When some douchebag like you stops your bike on the road causing to traffic to back up through five or six red lights they are stopped in that road intentionally to prevent me and others from going about our business, I should be able to remove you from my path. And there’s a funny thing about douchebags, they rarely know they’re douchebags. Know what I mean, douchebag?

@not_alice

If I didn’t see this kind of thing all the time, I’d think you are whooshing us. Sadly I don’t think you are. You are angry, and you imply there is only a very thin shred of conscience that keeps you from running people over on their bikes because you felt inconvenienced.

The thing that keeps me from doing it is my desire to stay out of jail. It has nothing to do with conscience. If I were on a jury and a car just decided to slowly push its way across an intersection being blocked by douchebags like you, I’d think they did the right and reasonable thing. If douchebags want to show the stupidity of a Rachel Cory and stand in front of three thousand pounds of metal armed with bike gloves and self-important righteousness, I’d say, chalk one up for Darwin.

@not_alice

While you are at it though, maybe a little anger management and defensive driving review classes are in order.

Not necessary, thanks. I’m an excellent driver and rider. And I’m able to control me anger just fine, thanks to my desire to stay out of jail.

@not_alice

Maybe maybe not but that is not the topic.

Why am I not surprised that you are unable to comprehend an analogy.

@not_alice

Or maybe you did, and that is a threat?

Amazing. How you got a threat of my pointing out that you post as if you’ve already suffered head trauma points to more than your just your average dumb. I am impressed.

@not_alice

Glad to know that your lack of humanity when inconvenienced knows no bounds when it comes to whom you would simply execute for inconveniencing you by running them over with your car. Thanks for sharing!

See, here you go again. You take the words written and assign other words to join them that were not there nor intended. I want no one executed. But if the douchebags in question suffered a few mangled bikes, bangs and bruises, sometimes people have to learn the hard way. I certainly wouldn’t want anyone dead. I want them to live a long life to remember how fucking stupid they were on that particular day.

@not_alice

Reading comprehension or incomplete writing?

Reading comprehension. And you would benefit from a course in logic, too. When someone writes something you can’t embellish it and then hold them responsible for your additional words. Can you really be this dumb? I’ve heard tell of such individuals, but really, it’s astonishing to encounter.

@not_alice

Going up hill if you were in the lane, you probably should have let him pass, How steep was the incline, how fast were you going, why not simply pull over or off for the 5 seconds it takes for him to go by? I would do that on an uphill, it is simply worth it to have the clear path once traffic has gone by if nothing else.

You are simply a dumb and self-important. You’re assuming—again—that I did not stop. That I did not attempt to be courteous. And you’re ignoring the other 60 cars I mentioned. A non-stupid, non-douchebag would assume that the fault was with the one driver I mentioned. someone both stupid and a douchebag would assume the fault was mine. Thanks for letting me know where you stand.

@not_alice

You would rather punish other cyclists the same way he probably wanted to punish you.

I want to punish no cyclist. I don’t mind punishing self-important douchbags. If they happen to be cyclists, or republicans, or democrats, or vegans, or fans of Lost is beside the point as far as my motivation.

@not_alice

Which is really at the heart of what I don’t get.

You mean, as in the middle of a really, really long list?

@not_alice

Most experienced riders are MORE sensitive, not less, to the issues of bike vs car, especially after one or even several incidents like that. Yet you seem the opposite - you advocate a change of laws that would have allowed that guy to nudge you right over the drop off and be on his merry way.

My head hurts attempting to grasp the degree of your imbecility. and this after I already explained this particular mistake to you. I take back what I said earlier: stop wearing the helmet. You’re wasting it. The helmet you don’t wear could protect someone who has something worth protecting. If you must, I suggest a headband.

@not_alice

I know there wasn’t much traffic out there that day, 60 cars in a day is a good day of riding almost anywhere indeed! But in the cities, where you find CM happening, a rider will have to manage interactions with 60 cars every 10 minutes, on a good day.

:rolleyes: It wasn’t all day. (There you go again.) And it was a busy day on this road. A busy Saturday in the Marin Headlands.

@not_alice

Funny thing is, like the OP, you write in a way to leave out the pertinent details.

Even if that were true, that doesn’t give you license to embellish it the way you want. If you want clarification, ask. You know, like non-douchebags do.

@not_alice

And don’t take things so personally, either from me, or the others you encounter on the road regardless of mode of propulsion. That is my wish for you.

My wish for you is that you get brighter, just enough for you to realize what a dumb douche you were.

And please, in the name of fighting ignorance, not to mention being considerate of others, take the time to enclose the points you are responding to in the proper quote boxes. Or is your time so much more precious than the rest of us?

[TVeblen]

@not_alice

Making drivers aware of their own shortcomings is the purpose of CM. When drivers demonstrate none of the above is true anymore, I am sure CM will fade away because drivers and bikes will already be in happy equilibrium.

That isn’t the stupidest, most self-serving thing I’ve ever read on these boards but it’s in the top 10.

So you think that purposely obstructing traffic and breaking the rules of the road are swell ways to change peoples’ minds about bike riders. Right. How altruistic of you.

For every careless, arrogant driver there is a careless, arrogant biker who thinks traffic laws and the rules of the road are purely optional for anyone on two wheels. I’m a careful and courteous driver who has nearly clipped cyclists who blew through red lights, swooped into the lane without looking and, in one case, darted diagonally across four lanes of busy traffic, going the wrong way.

I’d respect CM slightly if it bothered to emphasize biker responsibility as well–but that’s much less fun than self-righteous assholery.

And those “numerous” funerals of bikers killed by motorists you’ve attended? Bullshit. And conflating deaths is really, really tacky, btw.

You aren’t a victim, nor a crusader. You’re a passive-aggressive jerk who’s found a convenient excuse to behave vilely.

[Skywatcher]

@not_alice

I recall one time in Baltimore I was riding down a large hill in downtown area in traffic. St Paul Street, Probably around Baltimore st for those in the area. I was cut off by a driver mindlessly making a right turn as squeezing me to the right. I slapped her right rear fender HARD.

AC did the same thing to a guy who didn’t yield to us while he was making a left and we were pedestrians in a crosswalk. Dude was so pissed that she dared touch his car that he tried to pull a U, and nearly collided head-on with another car while doing so! She never tried that again.

[not_alice]

@Hunter_Hawk

Hey, you left out the part where I take the limp and bleeding bodies of bicyclists whom I’ve viciously struck down, arrange them into compromising postures, and then post amusing photos on http://icanhasbikercorpse.com. Don’t forget that.

Here is your OP and aome other things you said in this thread in case you forgot:

To the Critical Mass idiots: Watch where you’re going!
Lookit, folks, I too own a bicycle, I think bikes are a valid form of transportation, I think everyone should share the road appropriately.

But you’re lucky I have decent reflexes. Because I’m in a Volvo and you’re on a bike, so suddenly pulling out of your lane and deciding to play chicken with me on a rain-slick street is a dumbass thing to do.

I’d have a helluva lot more respect for you if you obeyed the damn traffic laws and had some common sense.

Ad hominem attacks and no details about the incident. A vague threat that cyclists owe their life and limb to :your reflexes" which you can choose to use or not use as you see fit. That is usually how these things start.

OTOH, I’m not gonna be real sympathetic if some of them get ground into the pavement because they’re deliberately being stoopid.

More lack of concern for other folks who drive on the road. At least you didnt say " if I ground them into the pavement". good plausible deniability.

Sorry, but you don’t get to violate the social contract, flout reasonable laws, deliberately risk others’ well-being, and then claim to be taking the moral high road.

I have done no such thing.

you on the other hand are full of piss, vigor, and ad hominem attacks and vague threats that you or someone else will go after the cyclists as you or they see fit.

So yeah, sorry the roads were not perfectly clear for you one day. Shit happens. Are we to expect the same from you every time something happens that causes you to check that your reflexes are still good, or will it only be cyclists during CM drawing your ire?

My advice to you?

Keep a calendar, note the day of CM each month, and if you must be in the area (I know it is not always avoidable) take extra special care to account for traffic conditions that may arise, same as you would anytime the roads are not empty just for you.

And be especially careful in parking lots

[not_alice]

@Lute Skywatcher

AC did the same thing to a guy who didn’t yield to us while he was making a left and we were pedestrians in a crosswalk. Dude was so pissed that she dared touch his car that he tried to pull a U, and nearly collided head-on with another car while doing so! She never tried that again.

I’ve done it plenty of times. Sure, occasionally a big mean looking guy will stop and shout, but later he probably remembers it when he sees a cyclist and gives a wider berth.

I did it once to a cop car not far from the place I mentioned earlier. I don’t care. They learned something that day too. Avoiding bikes is soooo worth not having to do the paperwork when you cream one

But I never need to do it if you are not cutting me off and so close I can actually smack your car. Not something I want to do, but something I do to protect my life, just like when I drive, in certain situations in the instant before a collision is inevitable you will honk your horn and generally that is enough to wake people up and prevent the collision. Same principal, and it works.

Fortunately I don’t need to do it often and I don’t live in an urban area anymore.

[Skywatcher]

@not_alice

I’ve done it plenty of times. Sure, occasionally a big mean looking guy will stop and shout, but later he probably remembers it when he sees a cyclist and gives a wider berth.

This dude only stopped and shouted after he was blocked in by the car he nearly hit. He clearly was getting ready to take another run at us.

[not_alice]

@TVeblen

That isn’t the stupidest, most self-serving thing I’ve ever read on these boards but it’s in the top 10.

Wow, coming from SDSAB member, that is saying something. More about you then me, but ok.

So you think that purposely obstructing traffic and breaking the rules of the road are swell ways to change peoples’ minds about bike riders. Right. How altruistic of you.

Pretty sure you will not find an official CM page stating a “purpose” at all. So maybe, you can provide a cite of that.

Look it up the next time you are stuck in traffic where it is cars jamming the road perhaps. You know, like every morning and evening rush hour in a lot of places?

Do you blame those people for obstructing your way too, or does the purpose or mode of the trip count in your calculations?

For every careless, arrogant driver there is a careless, arrogant biker who thinks traffic laws and the rules of the road are purely optional for anyone on two wheels.

That may be, but I am neither of those, yet my life is risked every time I get out of my driveway on my bike. Many other less skilled, less experienced folks will not cycle because of the danger - not of arrogant drivers, but of traffic and general - and that is at least a factor in many public health issues we face.

I’m a careful and courteous driver who has nearly clipped cyclists who blew through red lights, swooped into the lane without looking and, in one case, darted diagonally across four lanes of busy traffic, going the wrong way.

That sucks. Hell it has happened to me while driving too, but what it does to me is resolve to look more carefully next time. Kids chase balls into the street sometimes too, but if you have to swerve, you don’t resolve to hate kids that play do you? You resolve to slow down and anticipate them better where they might be, right? You are careful and courteous after all, so what other answer could there be?

I’d respect CM slightly if it bothered to emphasize biker responsibility as well–but that’s much less fun than self-righteous assholery.

That could easily be done if people who drive and rant here and a zillion other places would resolve to help their fellow drivers feel the road needs to be shared and maybe we could all get together.

Because if you don’t like CM,. there are probably better advocacy groups anyplace where there is CM. They are not universally loved after all, but no drivers I ever hear about say “If only there was no CM each month, we could organize and advocate for cycle/car road sharing effectiveness.” I NEVER have heard that of drivers. I’d be happy to learn of such groups, but if they exist they are not widely known.

And those “numerous” funerals of bikers killed by motorists you’ve attended? Bullshit. And conflating deaths is really, really tacky, btw.

Don’t know where you are, but when I was in the Bay Area, where there are tons of cyclists, there are frequent deaths. You can look it up. Yes, cycling advocates attend funerals and memorials.

You aren’t a victim, nor a crusader. You’re a passive-aggressive jerk who’s found a convenient excuse to behave vilely.

Sorry I struck a nerve!

I am not a victime because my skills have helped me avoid it so far. there have been numerous close calls, and at least one right hook where I was hit, my bike caught in the car, dragged, and I ended up on the windshield.

Anyway, I assume you have been driving a pretty long time. That you have not been killed, is that a reason for you to not do what you can to make sure drivers are aware of the issue?

Because you know what?

CM is maybe 3 hours a month out of 720. But the other 717 hours, you might see cyclist, and when you do,. you will consciously think of driving safely around him or her because of this thread, and then you will do it, even better then before.

I don’t care if you think this thread was stupid or not, you will probably remember it and alter, improve your even good habits regarding cyclists, not make them worse.

Same goes for others. Not all of us live in a place with CM, but we all probably see bikes at least sometimes. So if people learn that maybe there is another way to behave while driving, and that following through on the violent fantasies of the OP and others (not you) around any cyclists is not really a good idea, then it will be worth it to be called self-serving by you

And that is a good thing!

[aptronym]

@not_alice

As an experienced rider, you well know that there is an element of the driver population that is clueless, as the driver I just mentioned, and those who actively believe bikes should not be on the road. Neither is going to have their positions changed without a hard experience, and there are large groups of each set. I prefer the experience by non-injurious and slightly inconvenient, as in CM or the incident I described. They work.

Another experienced rider chiming in to say that you’re full of shit.

CM teaches a lesson to the 10% of drivers that are clueless or malicious and irritates the fuck out of the 90% of drivers that are reasonable, courteous, or even - :eek: - avid riders in their free time.

[not_alice]

@Derleth

You’re a biker, right? Do you want to be the consequence he suffers?

I take my chances every single day.

so far whenever these threads erupt, no one ever follows through to hit someone as far as I know. If they do, they end up in prison.

When there is a collision, like yesterday’s in Seattle, it is rarely malicious.

I say rarely because it has happened - there was a group of very experienced riders, on Alpine Road or Sand Hill Road in Palo Alto a couple of years ago and some driver did intentionally run down some of the riders. The innocent rider and the guilty driver both have prices to pay.

Still, the alternative is to ban cyclists from the road and that is not going to happen. It would take a legislative action, which you are free to pursue, but short of that, and until that, you have to accept that cyclists are going to be on the road.

Now I and everyone knows that at least 99% of riders and drivers are good and careful.

And as I alluded to upthread, most car-cyclist interactions are managed fine by both and never even noticed by either.

But in some places, particularly where you will find CM active, the roads are densely populated in complex urban area layouts. For rider and driver alike, the cognitive effort at managing interactions with everything - left right front back up and down is considerable.

For the cyclist, the concern is this: the driver may not be looking or aware, and may move to place the cyclist in immediate and critical (no pun intended) danger. It can happen in an instant with little or no recourse.

I think we all understand that, and that in a car v. bike battle, car wins every time.

So it is really incumbent on bike to manage the interactions carefully. To some extent that requires the cooperation of the driver. There is little a cyclist can do on the road it influence an driver’s overall attitude. CM tries to do that - better or worse, I don’t know.

I have only ridden in CM in SF (or anywhere) one time. Not my scene really. I didn’t really see anything different from the dozens of times I rollerbladed with as many as 800 people though the same streets. In those cases, cars stopped to watch, politely gave us a wide berth, and were generally happy to see us. Despite it being night, few had any lights, although helmets were mandatory if I recall.

Same streets, same clogging of traffic. Probably under the law, the skaters had less rights to the road then the bikes did.

But somehow, the drivers only saw bikes, not skaters, as a hindrance and a reason to get angry. I have skated almost everywhere I have ridden on the roads too in California, and except for one cop in Mountain View who needed to be shown the Vehicle Code section he thought I was violating before he stopped hassling me, I have never had an issue with a driver while on skates.

Why the different experiences? I am neither a wild rider nor skater. I am not young enough to do tricks, even off road. I ride properly under the law, stop at stop signs, wear safety equipment, signal by hand, everything else you would want. Yet somehow doing all that on a cycle inspires threats from cars, while doing it on skates does not.

To me, that speaks more to the state of mind of drivers, and is worth looking at.

But in the meantime, I don’t want to be an armchair driver psychologist tonight. I just want drivers to learn to treat bikes fine, and to do what they can to make the interaction for the cyclist easier to manage.

someone (magellan01?) said he had one bad experience in about 60 vehicle interactions he managed on his mountain ride.

I believe that ratio based on experience. It is nowhere near acceptable, especially in urban areas, where a cyclist will manage that many interactions with cars on every single block on some stretches, each one potentially fatal.

When a one mile ride might involve 500 such interactions, you can see where the slightest wrong move by a car can be nervewracking. A ten mile ride to work across town could involve 5000 interactions, then the same on the way home. Fro the commuter, that is 50,000 potentially fatal interactions a week, 2.5 million a year.

So you can see how they add up, and if there is even one dangerous incident every two weeks, it is still only one out of 100,000 interactions, and that is probably a common rate of dangerous interactions for a commuter in SF for example.

Normally a ratio of anything like that would be good, but because of the stakes, it is not in this case.

If I had to ascribe a purpose to and cycling safety advocacy, including CM, regardless of tactics, it is to improve this ratio. Since I am talking ratios for the best, the law abiding, the safest riders (naturally it is worse for wrong way riders, those who don’t stop, etc.), the burden for improving falls on drivers, not those riders.

Of course, with 99.999% interactions already happening well, most drivers are right to feel like they are already good drivers. And they are already good drivers.

But it is a numbers game as much as anything else, you don’t see as many bikes as bikes see cars, so maybe you don’t realize your overall contribution to the safety ratio for bikes. I am asking that if you keep that in mind, how many interactions the cyclist is already handling successfully, that you learn about the ways he or she does so legally and safely, and drive in such a way to anticipate and enable any safety maneuvers or interactions that are necessary.

That’s all it takes folks.

I know most drivers have not been on bikes since they were in high school or college, and they don’t ride the streets now.

But it would go a long way towards removing the animosity on these threads and whatever aspect of it you really carry on the road with you, if you would learn in principle what the variety of interactions a cyclist manages are, how they look to the cyclist, how they look from your vantage point in the vehicle, and how you can both negotiate the interaction successfully and safely.

I know you already do that well almost every single time.

But somehow, maybe once every 2 weeks or so for every urban rider, there is an interaction that seriously goes wrong even with the best current level of intent. I ask that you learn to see and anticipate the cyclist’s reaction in the more complex interactions, which probably go bad far more often then just everyone going straight ahead, and then everyone will be better off and these threads will be a thing of the past.

Please?