To the divisive shit-stains making asses of themselves at a time like this

The BBQ Pit
41

I agree with Smeghead–I thought Bush should have been kept out of DC longer than he was, regardless of what he personally wanted to do. I think of those who complain otherwise as people who’ve read too many warrior-king stories.

But it’s not just the political opposition trying to score points–I’ve heard this “Bush should have gone straight to the White House to be inspirational” stuff from conservative Republicans as well. Different motives, of course–this group was pining for Ronald Reagan…or, rather, John Wayne playing Ronald Reagan–and the righties seem to have shut up about it after Wednesday or so, but they were there too.

As for spin…the political pros surrounding Bush (or Clinton, or any president anymore) just have to spin everything–I don’t think they can help themselves. I agree that they should have refrained in this case.

And…I voted for Bush, though he didn’t exactly thrill me–I gave serious thought to voting Libertarian for awhile. But I must admit that I have been impressed with his actions so far–a lot more than I had expected to be.

42

I agree with CnoteChris on the spin, but it seems that everyone here wants to agrue about something else.

How about everyone agreeing that Bush did the right thing? He has been doing such a damn good job that he probably doesn’t even know about the story.

First facts I heard was that there were varified facts showing that the White House and AF1 were targets. Later, it was reported that they had received a phone call saying they were targets. What is varified about that?

Second, the story says Bush wanted to come back but the Secret Service wouldn’t let him. What part of Commander-in-Chief doesn’t everybody understand?

How were they going to get to Air Force One three hours after every aircraft (except AF fighters) were on the ground? Fact is the fighters were told to shoot down any aircraft that wasn’t heading for the nearest airport.

The idea that there may have been a bomb in AF1 seems to be the best way to attack it, but that doesn’t seem to have ever been thought about.

Stinger missiles around Andrews Air Force Base. Well, that is why Smeghead thinks Bush should still be flying around. They would have gotten him that evening.

Bush did the right thing, but the story is bull shit

43

Hey, I said in my first post there’s always a little spin. But CnoteChris seems unwilling to deal with the fact that there is independent information showing AF1 initially heading north.

I repeat. There is some spin. But it certainly appears that the entire story is not entirely spin.

And he might want to cruise around in a convertible limo, but the Secret Service won’t let him. You have a security service that is willing to take a bullet for any person holding the office. I doubt they fear being written up for disagreeing with the president. And, of course, the fact is that the Secret Service isn’t the military so I guess the question is: What part of Commander-in-Chief do you understand?

44

Thanks kniz.

Not a thanks for agreeing with me, but a thanks for clarification.

When my comments are scrutinized, I have a tendency to go over my previous points and explain them in ever increasing detail, hoping that that will make it clearer for others, but often having it result in me getting farther from the point I’m trying to make. To put it simply, in clarifying my comments, I get away from what it is I’m trying to say, and start diggin a big 'ole hole.

What I appreciate is an outsiders take on this because it nailed what I’ve been trying to say, even if I never said it specifically.

waterj2-

It was a fine line to tow, and in retrospect, I see where I went over it in GQ. It certainly wasn’t purposeful on my part, to get something stirred up. The intent, to me, was clear, the execution was… well, lacking.

Preview reveals-

I’m not understanding this. AF-1 heading north? I’m not arguing that.

That, to me, is the specific question I’d like an answer to- Why couldn’t he tell them no? Even if it’s the dumbest thing yet, what authority does the secret service have to tell the president no.

Because if you ask me, and what I was getting at in GQ, is that the secret service can’t tell him no.

And to further that point, in the interview with Cheney that I mentioned above, Cheney talked about how he thought the president should go ahead and leave for Nebraska. Why? If Bush didn’t have a choice, why was Cheney telling him not to come back- it’s a moot point.

45

Dunno…

If I get it, being a bitch and all, but MY understanding is he was absent in order to protect the chain of command. Call me persnickety and all but he did the right thing… he separated himself from the VP and Speaker of the House…

Am I like the only person who got WHY he did this or what?

46

The way I’m reading it, you’ve been saying the idea that Bush wanted to come home is spin. He really fled and now it’s all spin. I am simply saying that the report I saw indicated the plane was headed for DC initially. This, to me, indicates a desire to return to DC. Thus, the entire story is not spin as you seem to believe. Again, I concede there is some spin, but you seem to believe there was never a desire to immediately return. I just don’t think that’s true.

I think this is more a practical matter than a legal or constitutional one. My understanding of the Secret Service’s philosophy (from some books and interviews) is that their job is to protect the president at all costs. They don’t feel the president is their direct boss, they feel their ultimate responsibility is to the country as a whole which is fulfilled by keeping him alive.

What would happen if the president and the Secret Service disagreed vehemently? In most circumstances the Secret Service would try to get his aides to talk sense into him. But in this crisis situation there probably wasn’t a philosophical debate about who’s in charge.

As Cheney pointed out, they just came in and physically removed him. On the plane the probably told Bush there was a threat and they were diverting the plane. Did Bush have a theoretical right to override that order? Perhaps, but at a moment when Bush was trying to get information and figure out what was going on and how to address it, the order from the Secret Service is likely to carry the day. There were more important things to do then get the occupants of the plane in a dorm-room debate over who was in charge of the plane. So while saying the Secret Service wouldn’t allow him to return might or might not be technically correct, it was, for all intents and purposes, the way it really was.

47

There seems to be a failure to communicate on what the meaning of spin is, so here is it is:

[Quote}Merriam-Webster

b : to produce by drawing out and twisting a fibrous material
2 : to form (as a web or cocoon) by spinning
3 a : to stretch out or extend (as a story) lengthily : PROTRACT – usually used with out b : to evolve, express, or fabricate by processes of mind or imagination <spin a yarn>[/Quote]

I included the part about produce by drawing out and twisting, because I think it gets the point made best.

It isn’t that I doubt every word of the story, because that isn’t what spin is; it is taking basic facts and drawing them out and twisting them a little until you’ve got the story just right.

That point about the “Commander-In-Chief” was cute, I liked that, but I still disagree because the president is the boss, period. My objection is that some people were wondering why Bush didn’t come to Washington and so the story was tweaked so that he didn’t have any choice. That is spin.

48

Damn.

Why is it everything I ever read on a topic, coming from someone else, seems so perfect, yet my own thoughts look so botched to me?

Quick, and to the point, kniz.

Why I took the long way around this thing is beyond me.

49

Actually, while that post was being sent, I realized I had answered to my own question up there.

I can’t get my damn thoughts in my head to transfer through to the keyboard. Somewhere in there is some serious static interference.

When someone perfects the Vulcan mind meld, I’ll look like geniuses to you all.
*And you should be happy I don’t do post parties. With all the clarifications and additions I’ve had to add to my posts around here lately, there would be a party every week for my additions alone.

50

CnoteChris
Fair enough. I’ve been responding to what you have written. If you’re feelings are otherwise, then perhaps we’re on the same page of music.

kniz
See above. My points were related to CnoteChris’s apparent expression that she didn’t believe the president tried to go to DC at all and that the spin was, in fact, a complete fabrication.

Cute? I always try to be irreverent when teaching a lesson. Makes learning so much more fun. As for disagreeing, well, see my above post about, for instance, convertible limos. Or, here’s another example:

President X: “I’m down in the dumps. Hey, Agent Smith, give me your piece. I’m going to kill myself.”
Possible answers:
A)“Sure, you’re the boss. I’m honored you’ve chosen to use my gun.”; or
B) “No fucking way.”

You say A will happen. Smart money’s on B.

51

In guess my point was, or is, that I don’t always take the easiest route when trying to answer, or deal with, questions at hand.

And if you ask me now, I think this is a two-part question that’s being jumbled together. That is, you have a) the real question of what the president can request or not request at a time of crisis like Tuesday’s, and b) whether or not the spin that came out of this is grounds to level criticism towards those doing the spinning.

To be bluntly specific, I think my answers are-

a) Of course there are times where the president can’t over-rule the secret services wishes… I just don’t think that was the case on AF-1 Tuesday afternoon. In the example that was brought up before, if the president were in the direct line of fire, then of course the secret service will leap in and shove him out of the way. But when it comes to where he wants to go, he can choose for himself and the secret service will need to take precautions. Now, they’ll tell him how dangerous they think it is, and tell him they can’t take enough precautions, but I still believe, until I see something stating otherwise, that he has that choice. I mean, as I stated before, if the secret service got what it wanted in the pursuit to protect the president, I doubt we’d ever see him in public. We sure as hell, under the thinking of the secret service, wouldn’t be seeing him in the ruins of the World Trade Towers… but we did.

b) I think there are more than enough reasons to be critical of the spin that came out of Washington. It was so far from the truth, or one of the more egregious examples of spin turning to fallacy, that questioning it is not only appropriate, but should have taken place.

There’s no amount of spin in this world that will be able to make me a she, instead of a the he that I am.

Then again…

Nope, I won’t go there.

52

But I think the Secret Service was treating this as if the Pres was in the direct line of fire. Nobody quite knew what was going on. There were an undetermined number of suicidal terrorists on the loose, at least one of which hit a few miles from the White House.

I think your distinction between when he’s in the line of fire and letting him go where he wants is not so clear in this case. The Secret Service wanted to keep him from the line of fire. If the President wanted to walk down the street to a gunfight, the Secret Service wouldn’t let him.

As for your point (b) I have already acknowledged there was spin. However, I think some of the reason for the spin is that the White House knows many people have the unrealistic expectation that the president should blithely fly into a dangerous situation to show “leadership”.

Oops! Well, in my defense you are sitting far away, so it’s hard to make out your features.

53

Agents are instructed to follow orders without question, unless they are unlawful orders. Going to Washington was not unlawful, assisting in a suicide is unlawful.

On Tuesday, I was all for Bush not going to Washington and as stated I thought he was headed for NORAD. This does not preclude me from also agreeing with CnoteChris that Bush missed a great opportunity when he didn’t go direct to Washington. I am precluded from agreeing with you, simply because authority isn’t a matter of discussion and the ultimate authority is in the hands of the president. Harry Truman had a plaque on his desk that said The Buck Stops Here.

54

If you want to hang your hat on that distinction, then you’re avoiding the issue. But what about the hypothetical above where the president wanted to walk on a street where there is gunfire. That’s not illegal. Think the Secret Service would let him? Think they’d entertain a debate on who the boss is?

Your point is fine as far as a civics book goes, but the reality is far different. It is perhaps possible that Reagan wanted to hang around and watch Hinckley get arrested or Ford wanted to ask Squeaky Fromme why she didn’t like him. But the Secret Service isn’t going to afford them that opportunity.

55

In light of my extremely poorly worded OP, this seems inevitable. But I was really speaking more of those like Coulter, Fallwell, and Meehan whose first reaction to the tragedy was to push their agenda. Questioning the white house spin, while I don agree with it, seems more acceptable. If I am remembering correctly, the spin came after Meehan whined like a little fucking baby about how long it took the prez to get back to the white house.

56

Agents are instructed to follow all orders of the president, with the exception of those orders with may be unlawful. This subject came up during the Clinton administration, because of an entirely different sort of circumstances. It also came up in regard to the Bush daughters ordering beverages and using a false ID.

To the best of my knowledge it is not illegal to fly from Florida to Washington D.C., but it is illegal to assist in a suicide.

Here is a quote from the link Jeep’s Phoenix posted:

As to the question of his being a “figurehead” that is totally false. The question does come up about the president performing duties that are not offical. In England (and some other countries) they have the queen that performs this function and some countries have a prime minister and a president and one has the power and one is for show. Harry Truman had a sign on his desk that said "The Buck Stops Here and that says it all.

57

I’m probably going to dig myself deeper, but my biggest problem with the story was not the part about Bush wanting to return and being told he couldn’t by the Secret Service.
It was the feeling that I got from it that those in the White House were saying “Don’t forget we were in danger too here in the White House”. Using Cnote Chris’ theory they came out looking less than heroic, when they could have been heroes.

*reporter to John Wayne character: “You were in danger when you jumped off that horse to save Daisy Mae”

John Wayne character: “Ah, shucks, we gotta do what we can for the little ladies.”*

John Wayne’s characters never ran up to the reporter and said “Damn did you see that I could have got my ass killed!”

58

John wayne played that charachter in the movies, IRL he never fought in a war. Fictional characters often act how we wish people would act, in the real world even heroes act with regard to their own safety most of the time, that doesn’t affect that they are heroes. The passengers who fought the hijackers knew that they were going to die. If the first three flights hadn’t thought there was a chance to be released they might have done the same thing.
Not acting recklessly doesn’t make you a pussy.

59

Yeah, you said that in the previous post. Are you going to ignore my last post? I posed a hypothetical that doesn’t involve suicide or any illegal act. What’s your answer?

Thanks for making my point. The Secret Service did not report Jenna for her underage drinking. It appears that they view their job as protection more than law enforcement or taking orders from the president.

60

I’ve been sitting here for the last few minutes pondering whether or not this would be a good thing to resurrect. I may hate myself in the morning for it, but I actually think it’s worth it.

If you ask me, I think it’s amazing what the passage of time reveals. Truth be told, the White House fucked up on this one.