You mean the one where you started debating the issue in GQ?
Where was I debating the issue?
And since I’m about to go to bed, let me say my comments that I think you’re reacting to were based on comments on I made in response to someone wondering why others were question the presidents movements.
I tried to be clear as possible on why people would be critical and not turn it into a partisan bitch, but it’s a damn fine line to have to bring up why someone would criticize the president and not have someone else believe it’s politically motivated.
So blurry, in fact, that after I posted my thoughts, I thought it necessary to e-mail Lynn (Probably my third e-mail to a mod since I’ve been here).
Try finding a way to answer that question without someone talking it as politically motivated pot shots.
This is exactly what I was talking about. Not just politicians and religious leaders, all of us need to settle the fuck down for a little while- allow the wounds to heal.
As an athiest I cringed everytime I saw someone try to use the day of prayer to belittle nonbelievers, but I wanted to die when I heard or read one of my fellow nonbelievers bitch about it. For a long while now a lot of christians are going to think “oh, you didn’t give a shit about the tragedy” when they find out I’m a nonbeliever.
We don’t know if Airforce one was a target, and frankly there will be plenty of time for this childish shit later.
If TV and football can take a week off, can’t this kind of childish armchair punditry?
But doesn’t the Secret Service decide where their charges go when they are under attack? I mean, I don’t think the Secret Service would allow a protectee to go into an unsecured location after shots have been fired.
There’s always a little spin during a crisis. However, I saw a report on ABC News that showed the flight path of Air Force One. It initially took off and headed north towards DC but then made an abrupt turn west. This information, I believe, was taken from radar and not White House spin.
The initial flight path of the plane does seem to indicate there was an initial decision to head to DC. We weren’t on board so we don’t know what happened but it seems plausible that the president was headed to DC and then sent elsewhere because of the unstable situation.
I’m pretty calm, grendel72. I don’t know about you, but I’m all right.
But when someone comes in here and says I started up a debate, purposefully, in GQ, when I think I didn’t, then I think I’m well within my rights to explain why I wrote what I wrote, and why I think I didn’t cross the line (From my perspective).
I tried keeping the opinion part, or more aptly, my stronger opinions about the matter, out of my response in GQ.
Mostly because it said something critical about the president, I can now see where I failed miserably. People didn’t want any dissonance on the topic at all.
In hindsight -that beatifull thing that it is- I wish I hadn’t said a damn thing about it.
But since I’d heard and seen different discussions, and different reasons for the discussions going on about the presidents action, I thought I could add light to the general question of, ‘Why are people questioning the presidents actions on Tuesday’.
And while I’m here, let me add that I happened to see the rerun on Cheney on Meet The Press last night as I was nodding off.
It was very interesting. And I should add that I like the guy. He seems to be saying things from the heart.
At any rate, he starting talking about how he wasn’t allowed to decide whether he was going to leave the White House when the terrorist strikes started happening (He was at the White House, Bush was in Florida).
He said it in a way that made it very convincing. I have no reason to believe he was bullshitting about it.
If you’d have asked me right before seeing that interview, I would have said, and believed, that the president and vice president could, and can, tell the secret service what they want, specifically in this instance, ‘No, I want to go back to Washington’.
That’s it. And that was my main point over in GQ. To wit- If the president wanted to go back, he could have, even against secret service wishes.
But, again, Cheney made it sound like it wasn’t an option.
It was interesting, however, that he added that while in the White House bunker, or command room, PEAC (?), he said he told the secret service he wouldn’t move. At that point, they wanted him out of Washington.
Interesting that he could tell them no then, but not earlier.
And, no, I don’t think he was lying. I’d be just as interested as the next person to see what legally both men could have done in that situation, given my belief stated earlier.
No argument from me there, Zoff. It was the level of that spin, and the fact that it seemed the exact opposite from the truth, that was the reason (I think) that people brought this up to begin with.
I know that’s what I was being critical about.
I certainly didn’t take the attitude of, ‘Oh look at this dumbshit. He’s doing it again. Now’s our chance to go after dickhead Bush.’ It may have been the motivation of some, but it wasn’t mine.
If you search the boards, I think you’d be hard pressed to find anywhere where I state who I like or dislike politically. I don’t follow partisan lines, I look at actions and beliefs. Replace any other person in the White House and given the same circumstances, I’d still have said it, even if I were nuts about the person.
I’m all for standing behind the president in times of crisis, but come on, it doesn’t mean you can’t say a thing about him, does it?
And given the situation you’re criticizing me for, I’ll continue to believe their are actual questions that can be answered there, not just partisan bullshit, which, if it came up, I’d avoid as much as I’ve done here before.
I’m not quite sure if this is addressed to me, but I’m the last guy mentioned in your response so I want to respond.
I certainly don’t think I’m spewing “partisan bullshit”. I added some information that would be helpful in determining whether Bush truly did want to return to DC or if the entire thing is spin. The report I saw said Air Force One was heading north then “abruptly” (ABC’s term) headed west. This information certainly cautions against a premature declaration that it’s all spin and that Bush never wanted to go immediately to DC.
It wasn’t Zoff.
It’s in response to some shit I’m getting for comments I made here. It’s what waterj2 was alluding to.
Fuck it…this ain’t Great Debates:
Even the most obvious and intelligent decisions, even with the gift of hindsight, will be questioned, and dolts will come out of the woodwork and expose themselves for the dolts that they are.
IF BUSH WENT BACK TO THE WHITE HOUSE RIGHT AWAY, WE’D BE SO INCENSED AS TO WANT TO BLOW HIM THE FUCK UP OURSELVES.
WITH EVERYTHING THAT WAS KNOWN AT THE TIME, AND AT THE RISK OF EVERYTHING UNKNOWN ABOUT OTHER FLIGHTS, ONLY A STONE COLD MORTAL IDIOT WOULD GO BACK TO THE WHITE HOUSE.
We have successfully flushed out the dumbest 1% of the population: They are the dummies bright enough to suggest that Bush should have been in D.C. - at the White House nonetheless! - after planes were known to have been targetted at installatons like the PENTAGON (Hello, McFly) as well as the White House.
Nice to meet you too, Philster.
I’m being railed on because I dare to question the presidents actions on Tuesday. Actually, I question his actions less than I do those of the Secret Service, or whoever is responsible for the spin job. But since the secret service thought it was wise to disclose classified information -at a time the White House asked for people in the know to shut up already- simply to show the president didn’t do what most suggest: He fled in the face of real danger, is grounds to start asking questions.
Ask yourself why even they are taking strides (This is a few days ago now) to put a “positive” spin on it.
Why? Or, since we’re yelling at each other, WHY!?!
God forbid someone questions something right now. Better to put on the blinders and agree with it all. I mean, anything less means you’re on the other side, right? Or you don’t support the president?
Please.
In my opinion, that’s bullshit. They would be saying it was the most decisive, fearless, presidential decision he’s made to date.
Sure there would be people saying it was stupid, and I’d bet everything you’d be in here yelling at them too. Right?
I think your being challenged to back up your statements. You believe its spin. I’ve cited a news report that seems to indicate that it’s not spin. But instead of re-evaluating your position or even addressing several points, you’re persisting in the martyrdom act.
You’ve made this point a couple of times, so I need some clarification. What classified information have they disclosed? The fact that there was reason to believe there was an attack planned on AF1? Why do you think that is classified? Several sources have been openly discussing these issues, so I seriously doubt it is considered classified.
Perhaps it’s because they realize some people, despite evidence to the contrary, will want to believe the president was afraid or is lying about his actions.
Come again?
Because I’m explaining myself, so at least we’re clear on this issue, I’m being a martyr?
Unfortunately, I don’t have a cite for this information, but it was circulated enough that others that I talked to about it knew what I was referring to.
The bottom line on the classified information was that during a news conference, either the secret service, or the president’s spokesman, said that they had credible evidence that AF-1 and the White House were targets.
From what I remember at the time, people were surprised that this information was being released like that. I believe, but am not positive, it came right after the senator or congressmen from whereever, said they were intercepting Bin Laden phone calls.
They came out and bitched at him for talking about that aspect, but turned around and revealed some things themselves.
Now I’m not about to argue that part of it, because I frankly don’t care about that aspect, but you asked me ‘What information’. That, if I remember right, was the information I was talking about.
If he was afraid, then fine, say he fled for safety. Don’t say he was hell bent on returning.
It’s making him look like something he wasn’t. What’s the problem with them saying he acted human? I’d be far more forgiving of that then this Rambo image their portraying him as having.
This link offers information about the Executive Branch of the U.S. government. Hope it’s enough to prove to you that the President is not mere figurehead.
No, it’s because of comments like:
and
and
The oppression is palpable.
The fact remains that Air Force One was heading north, then turned west. Was Bush “hell-bent” on going to DC? I don’t know, but it appears he tried to go to DC initially.
But you just want to ignore this information and stick with the view that it’s all spin.
I’m not questioning your loyalty or your right to ask questions, but when you ought to be willing to listen to the answers.
Jeep’s Phoenix
I will grant you that in theory he is more than simply a figurehead, I just dont’ feel he realistically is anything more than just that. That time has passed and his right hand men/woman would never let him make a decision that was not agreed upon by at least a majority in the given department.
I don’t believe that a political party would let someone become the head of their party without knowing he was at least moderately controllable.
BUT, you are right, in theory he is more than a figurehead.
I do appologize for the hijack
I, too, questioned the actions of the president and his security people Tuesday.
If I’d been in charge, Air Force One wouldn’t have landed for a full day. It can refuel in midair, and it has enough equipment on board for the president to do his job there indefinitely. Plus, it’s mobile. You surround it with a few dozen fighters and keep the damn thing moving as long as humanly possible. When I did finally allow the President off the plane, I sure as hell wouldn’t let him anywhere near the east coast. I’d drop him off at NORAD, where he’d be under a big-ass damn mountain. If I were in charge, he’d still be there now. He sure as hell wouldn’t be making hugely publicized appearances in wide-open public places on a daily basis.
You think he was cowardly for staying out of the way for a couple of hours??! In-fucking-sane. The man has balls. His security people must be going out of their minds. I am coming to admire him more and more every day, which frankly shocks the hell out of me.
If that comment is directed at me, then I wish you’d get your facts straight.
I didn’t say the president was acting like a coward.
I said I would have been more impressed had he gone back, but understand why he didn’t. What impresses me the least, is the spin saying otherwise.
[quote]
Originally posted by Smeghead
** I am coming to admire him more and more every day.**
Me too. I particularly liked his speech from earlier today. And, despite the obvious danger in going to New York, I was impressed that he did it.
You provided the link to the thread. I’ll quote some of your comments that were not, IMHO, appropriate for the forum: