Just kidding. Actually, I just wanted to say that I’ve found your attitude very inspiring. While I was being pissed off and snobby about America, you have said that we need to be humble. That really struck me.
I had forgotten about humility, and I’m a christian. You, a gay man who hates religion, have been much more Christlike than I. And I’m not saying either of those things makes you a bad person, it just makes it all the more meaningful than if a saint had said it.
Damn, that still sounds like I’m saying you’re not as good as me. I hope you get what I’m trying to say, because I can’t seem to say it right now.
I don’t know what I’d do right now if not for people like you who are hopeful. You have given me Faith and Hope.
Another possibly unlikely source of hope is Michael Moore himself.
Elenia28, if it’s unclear to people (though it looks like you figured it out), I want to make it clear that this thread is sincere.
Duffer, that is scary. I wonder where the greatest of the three, Love, is. I left it off my list because it would be just downright creepy if I said “you gave me love” to someone. Plus, he didn’t give me love.
Huh? What’s he smoking? This fool spent the year before the election trying to get people to vote against George W. Bush, and when a bunch of them do so, he confuses that for a vote for his wacked out liberal adgenda? Talk about none being so blind as those who refuse to see…
This is the attitude that will nominate Hillary in’08 and mark my words now, November 5, 2004: If that happens, no matter who the Republicans nominate, he or she will win at least 60% of the vote.
Thank you for the kind words, but I don’t think I merit them. I was as angry as anyone else at the election results. I still am. It would be easy to join the other Kerry voters in venting rage at the choices made by 59 million of my fellow citizens, particularly at the overwhelming success of anti-gay amendments in the Red states, which hurts my heart more than you can imagine.
The plain fact is not that the voters got it wrong or that the GOP cheated; those would be pleasing to believe but they just aren’t so. The unpalatable truth is that those of us who oppose Bush’s policies failed to make the sale. We fucked up. It’s not the fault of the Bush voters; it’s our fault. And when one fucks up, one has a choice–to rage and blame everybody else for one’s misfortune, or to accept the responsibility and learn from the experience.
I also don’t like the secession talk. I’m an American, this is my nation, for good or ill. And even in the states that voted for Bush, there are Democrats who voted for Kerry and many other centrists who voted for Bush because his team made a better case for their support than Kerry’s team did. If the Dems want to regain popular support and win back seats in the House and Senate, they are going to have to accept the Red staters and treat them with respect, as equals, not as peasants to be ordered about for their own good. There’s a scene in 1776 in which John Adams is raging to Ben Franklin about the pro-slavery South. Franklin replies: (this is from memory, so it may not be accurate):
I will support the president if I think he is right, and I will oppose him when I think he is wrong. I think that’s all that can be asked of a patriotic citizen.
And I would remind the GOP Dopers that loyalty to a man is not the same as loyalty to the nation.
And on preview:
What Weirddave said. Hillary /clinton is unacceptable to most of the nation.
This is why I keep advising people to get ready for twelve more years of Republicans in the White House. If Dems don’t take the gobear Approach[sup]TM[/sup]*, they’re not going to accomplish anything anytime soon.
They’ve got some good ideas, too. I am a Republican but I’m not a fool who won’t listen to a good idea because it didn’t come from my camp. That way of thinking is un-American and counterproductive.
*[sub]Except the part about calling same sex marriages disgusting. It’s not and I’m sure that had to hurt when you typed it.[/sub]
I respect Gobear and his attitude… and not as much other mega ragers. I tried to stay somewhere in the middle.
I’ve suffered enough with my own countries politicians and I see a tendency that is very bad and very hard to stop in the US… don’t expect Democrats in power anytime soon. Do expect religion and terror issues to stay on the top of the political agenda for another decade. Having said that… I think Democrats have all the right to complain and bitch.
I don’t know whether his claim about Wilson is correct or not, and it’s worded so vaguely that he could weasel all around anyway. If he means the popular vote, then he is saying that on the one hand (Bush’s win), 51% is narrow, but on the other hand (the war wasn’t worth fighting) 51% is significant. Plus, his 56% figure for headed in the wrong direction is culled from the worst of the data. Like an East German olympic judge, he goes for the extreme stat instead of the average. What a recalcitrant jackass.
I would like to comment on these two points if I may.
I have been seeing a lot of the sentiment around here to the effect that the Republicans now have what they wanted, and so they own the mess. I disagree for several reasons.
On the front of strictly human compassion, I will say that when it comes to the ordinary folks that voted for Bush, they are still my countrymen. I think that they made a horrible mistake, but I will still do all that I can think to do to protect them (and let us be honest, if things are going to be as bad as some folks fear the consequences will not stop at just the folks that voted for Bush). We are in this together.
Second, and this is a bitter truth that we need to look at, the Democrats own this mess as well. It was the spinelessness of the Democrats that failed to engage in any meaningful opposition to the war, squandering the surplus, Patriot Act etc. Like it or not, this Administration had a lot of cooperation from our side in creating this mess and we need to own that.
Last, I will say that based on my personal experiences just on this board for the past few days that this country is certainly not beyond any hope of reunification. For every enraged Liberal and for every gloating Conservative I am seeing people making efforts to reach out, communicate and understand each other. I remain full of hope.
They’re mine too, but they’re starting to piss me off. I have their backs for now, but if the shit hits the fan, they’re on they’re own.
They want to be in this together? Good, we’ll alternate attacks on the heartland and NYC. Why should I be the only one to enjoy watching people leap to their deaths from my office window? :rolleyes: Maybe if these fools were the ones getting hit, they would be more interested in catching the people that actually hit them.
They decide, we die.
This I agree with 100%
I wish it wasn’t but it is. This country is split, and will remain split. There is nothing both sides will trust to bring them back together.
I appreciate the attempt at reason though, drone, I’m still (obviously) simmering.