ISTM we may be looking at the phenomenon of a set of skills and knowledge becoming degraded due to the adoption of various conveniences. “All-season” radials are misleadingly named, it’s really “all season with no significant snow accumulation or icing and only so much water”. Radials and FWD and traction control and in some places better road-clearing work may mean the threshold for when you *will *need snow tires/chains or a realistic reassessment as to whether it’s even worth trying to go to begin with, gets moved on down at times far enough that some people seem to forget that it *will *come.
Still does not excuse someone in Wisconsin or Minnesota. Lowland Maryland or North Carolina, sure, I can see that. But around lakes Superior and Michigan? Not past your first snow after first moving in.
When I lived stateside I lived in a “mild winters” zone-- though you *would *get snow and ice at some point every year – mild enough that I was able to deal with it with FWD and radials, no need for special provisions. Plus I was “nonessential” personnel (yeah, I know, comforting whenever you hear profits are down, ain’t it?) so I did not have to brave the really bad emergencies. Still never got stuck and never slid sideways down the ramp as a mere spectator inside an experiment on conservation of momentum.
“All ther things being equal” the 4WD/AWD will beat the RWD – but one of those “all other things” is a competent driver who knows what s/he’s doing and what the hardware is capable of.
Yeah, we all ‘know’ a guy. I am THAT guy that a two wheel drive will not work. I don’t care what type of tires you talk about.
It’s cute to see these debates go on with people that really don’t know what winter driving really is. I get 30 feet of snow a season at my house, It’s rare, but it’s out there.
LOL ok. 30’ of snow. Sure. And I drive on ice 8 months a year. I learned to drive on that ice in a 1977 Mercury Marquis with RWD and a 460 V8. You put the right tires on a car and drive it safely, and you’ll be fine in just about any climate in North America.
Obviously 4WD > RWD, but to imply that the latter somehow makes you a menace is ludicrous. Tires (and speed) matter significantly more. 4WD helps you go, but it sure don’t help you stop.
It’s true, we measure any accumulation over 1 inch and keep very good track. Thirty feet is the high end, We get between 25-30.
I drive on ice/snow 6 months out of the year. And need to put my SUV in 4 wheel drive every day for those 6 months.
You’ll be fine with a two wheel drive car provided that you can - stay on plowed streets, work from home, or have flexible schedule. I have yet to find a 2 wheel drive car that can handle a foot of un-plowed snow.
And this is what I mean. It’s ok if you can’t imagine what it’s like to receive up to 30 feet of snow over long winters. Many people can’t. Life is different when you live on the continental divide at 11,200 feet in elevation. Being on the divide, we get upslope storms from the east, and also weather coming in from the west.
I’m not talking about a winter in Michigan, I’ve been at elevation for 24 years. I drive over the continental divide on a two lane road twice a day. I can assure you that I can handle it and my winter driving skills are more than up to snuff. No reason to try to deride me, I know what I’m talking about.
This December hasn’t been bad with 62 measured inches. Our snowiest months are March and April. It’s usually all melted by the beginning of June with May being called mud season for obvious reasons.
So far this year I’ve pulled out two Jeep Wranglers (4x4 won’t always save you of course). And a ‘neighbor’ 2wd Toyota 3 times, along with plowing her road. It’s frankly getting a bit tiring. The neighbor is only a part time resident, but can’t seem to understand that a 2wd is NOT going to cut it in the winter where we live.
Where in there do you see anything that would indicate to you that I’ve never lived where we could get (eventually) 30 feet of snow? Not that it has anything to do with what I was responding to, but FTR I lived at elevation on the Canadian border for several years. On a road that wasn’t plowed. Was driving a Pinto wagon back then.
Actually, you don’t. You keep insisting that it is the fact of the snow and not the skill of the driver that is the problem.
It’s both, and I said that. I can assure you that you would not get up my driveway, and even getting to the base of it will give ANYONE of ANY skill in a two wheel drive car problems in the winter.
Your saying your Volvo or Pinto can handle a foot or more of heavy wet snow?
I don’t know how wet or heavy (note that you have just now added those qualifiers after how many days of this?) the snow was, but the Volvo went up a short hill pushing at least a foot of snow, probably more, with no problems three years ago. Also up a semi icy driveway several times. I actually have a picture of the snow plow getting stuck in the motel parking lot that I had no trouble driving around in.
The Pinto was decades ago so I have no real memories of it, but I do know I didn’t use chains (refuse to fool with them) and I doubt I could have afforded studs back then.
I have a feeling you are either in a very unique situation that doesn’t call for the broad statements you are making, or you are full of it.
Yes a unique situation. The county I work in has four major ski resorts. Not coming to work because of snow sort of defeats the purpose. I work for county gov myself.
I’m just countering the broad statements that snow tires will fix anything for bad weather driving. They don’t.
Of course the best safety equipment is behind the wheel, but if the vehicle won’t even move, the best driver will still be stuck.
This.
I have a friend that has probably spent more time in 4LO that most 4WD drivers have spent off pavement. Hell, this guy won the Baja 1,000 back in the day in a freakin Rambler (not because it was fast, it wasn’t but he knew how to get to La Paz and didn’t get lost). He has written books on 4 wheeling. The guy is a pro.
Anyway, he did some serious climbing up a mountain one time, real 4WD stuff and got to the top. parked and was admiring the view. An old timer joins him and they chat awhile. The old timer told him goodbye and said he had to be on his way, this is when my buddy turned around and saw the guy was driving a 1964 Chevy II 2 wheel drive econo box. So no matter how good you think you are, there is always somebody better out there. This was a case of the old guy lived on the mountain and knew the tricks of that trail. Somebody that knows how to drive and has practice, 2WD is fine.
2WD is fine if you know what you are doing. 4WD is dangerous if you don’t.
First, driving ability appropriate to the conditions. Any moron can wreck the best equipped vehicle. Driving on snow and/or ice is not the same as driving on warm and dry pavement.
Second, winter tires, for without grip there is no control. Winter tire compounds stay more flexible (grippy) in winter temperatures than four-season or summer tires, and winter tires have tread patterns and siping more suitable to snow and/or ice driving. Some winter tires are better at ice (e.g. Blizzak), some are better at snow (e.g. Hakkipilata), and some are good at both (e.g. Hakkipilata studded).
Third and fourth, lockers and/or traction control, and 4wd or awd (carry on my wayward son, with grip from one tire you won’t be done).
Fifth, increased ground clearance from higher tires and a suspension lift (when the snow floats the frame, it’s winch time).
The trick is to equip for typical winter conditions where you drive. For most people, 2wd and all season tires are OK most of the time, but not for storm driving. For storm driving (or performance driving in the deep freeze), true winter tires combined with an ability to transmit power to a wheel even when it’s mate is spinning make a world of difference.
I ran Hakkipilata’s on my previous Pathfinder. The new Pathfinder has taller wheels and they don’t make them for it. I’m on Blizzak’s now.
For plowing my drive, and when I have to plow my road because the county didn’t get to it/where overwhelmed, I have a 4x4 truck with a Western plow and a 10,000 lb. Warn winch on the back. It’s chained up on all 4 wheels. Anything less doesn’t cut it. I really try to avoid plowing the road and wait for the county do it. Otherwise they get the idea that I’m going to do it all the time. It’s very hard on my truck.
I also have a Kubota 4x4 loader to push snow back and create snow storage.
Rick - funny story, but you do realize that there are places a 4x4 will go that a 2wd will not no matter how skilled and experienced the driver of the 2wd is.
