To the liberals who utterly dominate the season-ticket holding ranks for the Wash Nat Opera

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Maeglin

Sure about that?

@Maeglin

Seriously, what the hell is your point?

Damuri Ajashi said that big city opera companies self-evidently don’t need any help because they can support themselves. I pointed out that this is not the case. City Opera just went bust this season. The obvious conclusion is that being located in NYC is not enough to keep even a long-lived and much-beloved opera company alive. This is an important example because all of the big cities in the US have, together, maybe 15 big opera companies. One disappearing is a pretty big fraction of the total.

So nobody cares about Atari or any other companies that go bust every day. Nobody cares whether or not public support would have saved City Opera, either. What is of interest here is the idea that being in the big city insulates opera companies from the kinds of pressures that public support is supposed to alleviate. That claim is false.

I don’t recall saying that being in a big city insulates you from market forces. I’m just saying that an opera does not need a subsidy to survive and even thrive in places like NYC.

@Measure_for_Measure

Personally, I might nix support for the other places but keep the Kennedy Center, for diplomatic and tourist reasons. But I’m not that attached to this concept. Recall that we might be talking about 3% or less of the these big-city budgets.

So we can get rid of the subsidy right?

Was the show sold out? Then they were not subsidizing the city. Otherwise, they were contributing to the fixed costs of running the show.

Frequently they are (certainly the good seats are) but sometimes they are not. He has a subscription that pays for a seat at every performance. I think the subscription is probably worth the price just for the holiday shows and special events.

But the existence of high culture itself (and information in general) is arguably a public good which might justify limited subsidy. The weird part of this discussion is that the subsidy of the tax deduction dwarfs that of the direct grant, judging from the numbers reported upthread. And the grants at least have the virtue of transparency.

Why is high culture good for society beyond what you can get on PBS?

As for the tax deductions, meh, I figure its at least as good for society as making tithes tax deductible.

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

Did you see the figures posted on page 2? The WNO is not some national loss leader being propped up by substantial federal funding. It gets less than one twentieth of its funding from the government. As noted earlier, I am against public funding of things like opera, but it’s hard to call this a handout to the wealthy.

I think the WNO should subsidize smaller venues across the country.

Personally, I dont buy the whole “culture is good for society” argument. I don’t see opera adding being any more valuable than the movie Spiderman where we learn that “with great power comes great responsibility”

[ElvisL1ves]

@shiftless

Looking at the figures on page two (of this thread), the WNO got $1.2M from the government in 2011. One can discount that as a trivial amount of money I suppose but that is one single organization, in a city with a number of arts organizations, and one single city in a big country. If it’s so trivial, why fight for it?

@shiftless

I don’t think 1.2 million dollars is trivial at all.

Which is it?

an art form which only a tiny percent of the public enjoys in the first place.

The same is true of almost any art form you can suggest. It’s chicken/egg, anyway - if you’re not exposed to it, you won’t learn to enjoy it. So, you wouldn’t spend an amount you yourself deem trivial to save society from philistinism?

You guys who think opera should be supported by the government are the ones suggesting that amount is trivial. Heck, not just trivial but not enough.

Us? I refer you to your own post, quoted above.

[Measure_for_Measure]

@Damuri_Ajashi

So we can get rid of the subsidy right?

I’m glad somebody made this point. “3% is so low we should ignore it”, isn’t very different from, “3% is so small that eliminating it wouldn’t make much of a difference anyway.”

Then again, you might consider 3% a bribe to have the organization reach out to lower and middle income communities. Then again2, they would probably want to do that anyway.

Frequently they are (certainly the good seats are) but sometimes they are not. He has a subscription that pays for a seat at every performance. I think the subscription is probably worth the price just for the holiday shows and special events.

Right. So attending a popular Christmas performance is not supporting the arts, while attending a fall concert is. No irony there: I believe that is typically the case.

Why is high culture good for society beyond what you can get on PBS?

Snip the PBS point. Just ask why high culture is good for society. Because now we’re discussing the principle. If opera on PBS can be justified, so can subsidies for the Kennedy Center. Anyway,

1. Arguably we’re not discussing high culture (which will exist) but access to high culture. In a democracy, provision of the latter leads to a stronger nation.

2. Why spend funds on cultural heritage? Because it’s valued.

(Admittedly I think you weren’t arguing against high culture but rather against subsidies for US National Cultural Treasures. I guess my take is that I’d rather have the public be a stakeholder in such enterprises, as a expression of cultural pride. I admit I care less about funds extended to Backbridge, NE or even my locale, aside from political horsetrading.)

As for the tax deductions, meh, I figure its at least as good for society as making tithes tax deductible.

Here my disagreement is more pronounced. Look. We’re talking about factors of five or so (WAG). I makes no sense to whine about $1.2 million in direct outlays and pass over $5.4 million in indirect outlays from the federal government. Unless we’re discussing RO.

I think all individual deductions (1040, page 2) should be converted to 15% tax credits, incidentally.

Personally, I dont buy the whole “culture is good for society” argument. I don’t see opera adding being any more valuable than the movie Spiderman where we learn that “with great power comes great responsibility”

This is defensible point. My problem with it is basically one of scale. Art subsidies are dwarfed by Hollywood revenue by what? 10,000x? 100,000x? If you can spend a tiny amount of money to prop high culture, it seems to me like a good investment for any country with a modicum of pride. And cultural diversity is a virtue.

As it happens, I am dubious about opera as an art form, and am basically deferring to the opinions of others on that score. (Ha!) I won’t do that for multi-billion dollar weapon systems -for those I need considered arguments. And I’d be interested in a fair audit of the NEA. But I simply think that in terms of governmental spending there are far bigger fish in the sea.
ETA: “It adds up.” That’s an empirical claim. Demonstrate it.

[enomaj]

@The_Second_Stone

Well, what you spend your time thinking about is your own responsibility. It’s not as if “Big Liberal” has taken control of your thoughts.

Sounds like you haven’t heard of Obama’s directive to the NSA, codenamed “Really Big Brother”.

[Cartooniverse]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

How did they express this to you?

Were you wearing your “I’m a conservative and a douche nozzle” t shirt?

No, his t shirt looked like this:

Bricker

I’ve been going to the Opera infrequently but since I was 16. My impression in Philly, New York City, San Francisco, D.C.- you name it- is that the attendees were OVERWHELMINGLY blueblood Republicans.

Sorry your evening was ruined.

[Cartooniverse]

@ElvisL1ves

Well anyway, we now know he’s pretty much the same in real life.

[Jim Neighbors] Surprise, Surprise, Surprise !!![/Jim Neighbors]

[Randolph]

@Death_of_Rats

So, did you take the opportunity to find out why the mood was so heavily against you and take time to evaluate your ideas to see if maybe you may be in the wrong about the subject? or did you just hunker down and whine that other people disagree with you?

That would take emotional resilience, intellectual integrity, and strength of character. So no, he didn’t.

[LeeshaJoy]

@Bricker

No. What spoiled my evening was sitting in my seat crafting notional replies of ever-increasing clever snark while the last act was going on.

So, basically, by pitting your fellow theater-goers, you are blaming the people around you for your own personal failures. Isn’t that what conservatives accuse liberals of doing?

[Trinopus]

@Guinastasia

Surely you’ve heard the phrase “pick and choose your battles?” Maybe this time your wife was right. (For the record, if I had been there, and a bunch of say, Tea Partiers started talking, I’d probably just ignore the whole thing. It’s not worth letting them ruin my evening.

Sort of happened to me, a few weeks ago. I was at a comic-book store, and joked, “Well, at least the government shut-down hasn’t closed this store.” A non-partisan joke, or so I intended it.

The customer next to me said, “Yeah, but those fucking Democrats will get around to it.”

I shrugged and ignored it. Anybody that stupid isn’t worth fighting with.

(If the store manager had said it, I’d have said, “So long, pal, it’s been nice being one of your customers.”)

Ignoring idiots is very often the course of the highest wisdom.

[Trinopus]

@John_Mace

. . . Opera, I don’t get. I’ve tried, but I don’t get it. Sure, some of the songs are good. But to sit through an entire Opera? No thanks.

Like any drug, you start off with the light stuff – Gilbert & Sullivan, for instance – and before long you’re getting heavier and heavier. The Magic Flute. Tosca. Aida. And next thing you know, you’re sitting through all four operas of the Ring Cycle. Accommodation is the step before addiction…

(I’ve watched “The Abduction of Figaro” twenty times, always in company with different friends…all of whom will laugh at different times! I’ve learned more about opera from that one opera than from any number of album liner notes!

[Saintly_Loser]

@Trinopus

Like any drug, you start off with the light stuff – Gilbert & Sullivan, for instance – and before long you’re getting heavier and heavier. The Magic Flute. Tosca. Aida. And next thing you know, you’re sitting through all four operas of the Ring Cycle. Accommodation is the step before addiction…

(I’ve watched “The Abduction of Figaro” twenty times, always in company with different friends…all of whom will laugh at different times! I’ve learned more about opera from that one opera than from any number of album liner notes!

Schickele’s masterwork. Like all of Schickele’s stuff, it’s funny and you learn quite a bit from it. I grew up on PDQ Bach, and actually learned quite a bit about music that way.

[elucidator]

@Trinopus

…Ignoring idiots is very often the course of the highest wisdom.

In some situations, improvisational castration simply isn’t practical.

[John_Mace]

@Trinopus

Like any drug, you start off with the light stuff – Gilbert & Sullivan, for instance – and before long you’re getting heavier and heavier. The Magic Flute. Tosca. Aida. And next thing you know, you’re sitting through all four operas of the Ring Cycle. Accommodation is the step before addiction…

(I’ve watched “The Abduction of Figaro” twenty times, always in company with different friends…all of whom will laugh at different times! I’ve learned more about opera from that one opera than from any number of album liner notes!

Emphasis added. I prefer the real thing.

[elucidator]

I like the one where the working class hero outsmarts the running dog jackal of the ruling class. He was an Arab, I think, or maybe a Berber.

[RedFury]

@Bricker

She is charming, but she is rightwards of me. She just doesn’t like public confrontation.

But at home, I’m the liberal.

Lemme guess. She was related to El Jefe in some fashion?

That would explain a LOT about you.

[digs]

@Death_of_Rats

So, did you take the opportunity to find out why the mood was so heavily against you and take time to evaluate your ideas to see if maybe you may be in the wrong about the subject? or did you just hunker down and whine that other people disagree with you?

Hyperventilating from laughing… at you, with you, with me… at Bricker (you DO know that’s who you were asking this of, right?)… Too. Funny. [gasp] schadenfreude/irony mixture too rich… not enough oxygen…

[Jackmannii]

Obviously, Bricker is mingling with the wrong crowd because he’s attending the wrong operas.

In order to associate with people of like politics, he should get season tickets to a Wagner series.*

@DoctorJ

I’m a white male physician living in the stickiest of the sticks of Kentucky.

That’s not a very nice thing to say about Louisville.

*sorry, couldn’t help myself :D.

[The_Second_Stone]

@Jackmannii

Obviously, Bricker is mingling with the wrong crowd because he’s attending the wrong operas.

In order to associate with people of like politics, he should get season tickets to a Wagner series.*That’s not a very nice thing to say about Louisville.

*sorry, couldn’t help myself :D.

Yes, I understand that Buenos Aires and Santiago have Operas with Wagner stuff that all the grandchildren of all the right people attend. Under assumed names.

[Ludovic]

@The_Second_Stone

Yes, I understand that Buenos Aires and Santiago have Operas with Wagner stuff that all the grandchildren of all the right people attend. Under assumed names.

Also, do you know who else liked Wagner?

[GIGObuster]

@Ludovic

Also, do you know who else liked Wagner?

I thought it was going to be a link to this:

What's Opera, Doc?

Kill The Wabbit

Kill the Wabbit! Kill the Wabbit! Kill the Wabbiiiiiiit!