To the "non-believers" and anyone who wants to argue

[blowero]

@scotandrsn

Genesis 1:1: “In the beginning, God created the Heaven and the Earth…”

Completely lost me after that at a very young age. The sheer lack of a real sense of proportionality in that one phrase just switched off my junior astronomer’s mind.

At least you made it past the front cover.

[IAMMYOWNGOD]

I don’t think that you can rationallly conclude there is no god. That’s the problem: there’s no way to apply scientific methods to prove or disprove such an entitiy. While I cannot subscribe to any deity-based religion I’ve encountered, I cannot dismiss out of hand that there is no “higher power” who set the ball rolling. Perhaps there is a god that is merely observing us without any intervention, or at least none that we can be aware of. There’s enough good in the world to make me suspect there is a god and a purpose for us beyond our understanding.

This, of course, does not preclude that we won’t cease to exist upon our death!

QUOTE=Ale]I don´t see the need to read the bible, or any and all other teological scriptures to then become an atheist based on it´s inconsitencies. It´s much simpler to asses the likelyhood of a supernatural, all knowing, omiscient and all that entity and reach the conclussion that such things just can´t exist.
Just like I don´t have to read a book on the existance of the Invisible Pink Unicorn to be convinced that there are no IPUs.
[/QUOTE]

[IAMMYOWNGOD]

Sorry, but I’m perfectly convinced that the Bible has brought a tremendous amout of harm to homosexuals, not only by directly calling it an “abomination,” but also indirectly through the intolerance and persecution of believers. There’s no way to deny the Bible hasn’t been widely used to condemn homosexuals. Right or wrong, overwhelming damage has been done thanks to “God.”

@Polycarp

There are several threads in which Diogenes and others debunk the proposition that “the Bible condemns homosexuality.”

I’m pretty content with the line that “the reason that the Bible isn’t bound with a handle is that God doesn’t want it used as a weapon against your fellow man.”

[IAMMYOWNGOD]

If you feel that way, why are you bothering to reply? Just ignore this thread! There’s plenty of other people who want to participate! But maybe you just can’t leave it alone . . . BTW - which section should I have used to start this post IYO?

@Coin

You know, I really think you ought to go back and read some of the debates that we’ve already had on this subject. It’s particularly worth noting that not all Christians here believe in an inerrant Bible, and aren’t really worthy targets for your education. :rolleyes:

The people who believe in a particular interpretation of the Bible that supports the destruction of the environment because we’re not going to need it much longer are really too stupid to take part in discussion here (and, IMHO, confused about what the Bible says and not well-versed in history, either). Your target audience isn’t on the SDMB, and doesn’t care what you have to say anyway.

[IAMMYOWNGOD]

Now you’re talkin’!

@Mangetout

Why comets, specifically? I’d have thought it more plausible to argue that he thought stars and meteorites were the same.

[IAMMYOWNGOD]

Here’s a few logical reasons (from my humble POV): How could all the synchronous beauty in the world have come about just by chance, even after “oceans of time” (to use a great line from a mediocre movie)? If we are the smartest beings that have ever graced the Earth, how is it that our bodies are smarter than us? That is, how is it that our bodies continue to function and take care of our well-being beyond our understanding? There’s still so much about how our physical selves operate that we have yet to discover! How is it that our world has an element for just about any need or desire we can conceive of? We have drugs, uranium, steel, snow, etc. all at our disposal, all for us to use or abuse as we see fit! Doesn’t that all seem just a little too perfect to be nothing more than random chance?

@blowero

To be honest, you sound almost like a charicature of what some theists think an atheist is - the quintessential “angry atheist”. But, I wouldn’t call you an atheist at all, since you “entertain the possibility of a divine creator.” I would call you an anti-theist, were there such a word.

Personally, I didn’t need any bible passages to “convince” me not to become a Christian. I was never indoctrinated into a religion in the first place, and as I grew up and became more and more aware of my surroundings, I gradually realized that there isn’t any valid evidence for God. It’s not that I’m mad at God, or at Christians, or at any other religion; it’s just that I don’t see any logical reason to believe that God exists.

[Marley23]

@IAMMYOWNGOD

Here’s a few logical reasons (from my humble POV)

That seems more like a kind of argument from awed ignorance to me. You’re saying you don’t understand how these things can be, so you’re ascribing them to a cause (god) that if you ask me is much more unlikely than the existence of the things themselves.

[IAMMYOWNGOD]

These quotes do seem particularly hard to defend! How 'bout it Jews? Christians? … While you’re at it, I’m curious, how many different reasons are there that “God” says you can be put to death for? I can think of some pretty outrageous ones - for example, somewhere it says you could be executed merely for cursing your parents. I know, I know, that was a much heavier thing for people back then … but how could a TRUE and TIMELESS god establish such a cruel law?

@rjung

I’m not sure I get the gist of the OP, but in the category of Annoying Biblical Passages, I’ll nominate good chunks of Deuteronomy:

Deuteronomy 12 - You must completely destroy all the places where the nations you dispossess have served their gods, on high mountains, on hills, under any spreading tree; you must tear down their altars, smash their sacred stones, burn their sacred poles, hack to bits the statues of their gods and obliterate their name from that place.

Deuteronomy 13 - If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you, offering you some sign or wonder, and the sign or wonder comes about; and if he then says to you, “Let us follow other gods” (hitherto unknown to you) “and serve them”, you must not listen to that prophet’s words or to that dreamer’s dreams.
That prophet or that dreamer of dreams must be put to death…

Deuteronomy 17 - If there is anyone, man or woman, among you in any of the towns given to you by Yahweh your God, who does what is wrong in the eyes of Yahweh your God by violating his covenant, who goes and serves other gods and worships them, or the sun or the moon or any of heaven’s array - a thing I have forbidden - and this person is denounced to you: if after careful enquiry it is found true and confirmed that this hateful thing has been done in Israel, you must take the man or woman guilty of this evil deed outside your city gates, and there you must stone that man or woman to death.

Deuteronomy 20 - When you advance on a town to attack it, first offer it peace-terms. If it accepts these and opens its gates to you, all the people inside will owe you forced labour and work for you. But if it refuses peace and gives battle, you must besiege it. Yahweh your God having handed it over to you, you will put the whole male population to the sword. But the women, children, livestock and whatever the town contains by way of spoil, you may take for yourselves as booty.

[Apos]

@IAMMYOWNGOD

Here’s a few logical reasons (from my humble POV): How could all the synchronous beauty in the world have come about just by chance, even after “oceans of time” (to use a great line from a mediocre movie)? If we are the smartest beings that have ever graced the Earth, how is it that our bodies are smarter than us? That is, how is it that our bodies continue to function and take care of our well-being beyond our understanding? There’s still so much about how our physical selves operate that we have yet to discover! How is it that our world has an element for just about any need or desire we can conceive of? We have drugs, uranium, steel, snow, etc. all at our disposal, all for us to use or abuse as we see fit! Doesn’t that all seem just a little too perfect to be nothing more than random chance?

No, not really.

[Marley23]

@IAMMYOWNGOD

These quotes do seem particularly hard to defend! How 'bout it Jews? Christians?

I’m neither, so maybe I should ignore this, but this has already been dealt with. It was the subject of much of this thread. And it’s to the detriment of the discussion you started, I think, that you’re not listening and being somewhat antagonistic. I’d like you to respond to my post #67, also.

[IAMMYOWNGOD]

I don’t believe in god because all gods that have been defined by humans either have serious flaws in predictive power or are unfalsifiable.
Another thing that informs me is that I know how gullable humans are and I know there is a great DESIRE to believe (especially when they consider the finality of death). There is great power in belief itself, but I could never kid myself into making it work for me. Some studies have suggested that our brains are physiologically predisposed to believe in a god, something that may have originally developed as a survival mechanism.

Theists provide tortured explanations for this, but when pressed for evidence that would stand up with accepted historical evidence, retreat into faith.
[/QUOTE]

Very true. When pressed, they also set up straw man arguements and knock 'em down. Or they simply claim my arguementative or deductive techniques are somehow flawed or unscholarly and refuse to answer because of their made-up technicality.

[IAMMYOWNGOD]

I completely agree. But I believe our world will never improve unless deity-based religions are exposed and refuted for the evil they cause by a rational, truth-seeking public (paraphrased from my recent letter to crosswindsweekly.com)

@Diogenes the Cynic

I just want to second a lot of what Voyager said. Finding errors in the Bible does not disprove the existence of God, it only proves that the Bible is not inerrant. Most of the theists here not inerrant literalists so poking holes in Biblical literacy (which is childishly easy to do) is not a concern to them.

My own agnosticism is based on a lack of proof and what I perceive as a lack of necessity for a deity, not upon Biblical errancy.

[IAMMYOWNGOD]

Well, I post at the library, so I imagine I’ll be coming back as someone else as long as I want. Why bother if I annoy you so much?

@Bryan Ekers

Soooo… can we expect more of these incoherent religion threads until your trial membership runs out? Just asking.

[Marley23]

@IAMMYOWNGOD

Well, I post at the library, so I imagine I’ll be coming back as someone else as long as I want.

That’ll get you banned pretty quick.

[IAMMYOWNGOD]

You seem very intelligent. The reason I don’t so easily dismiss (for example) Christianity is that I believe it continues to do a tremendous amount of harm to society, despite people feeling like they “need it.”

@Sleel

I started having a strong interest in mythology at a young age. My parents got me a subscription to a periodical anthology that had lots of folk tales and myths when I was about six or seven. Pretty cool stuff.

I noticed connections between bible stories and other mythology when I was still pretty young. That was the beginning of the end of my belief in the Judeo-Christian god. It’s kind of hard to believe that your myths are somehow different from someone else’s when there are so many obvious similarities. That in turn makes it hard to believe your god is better or more real than someone else’s.

I got myself in trouble a few times when I asked awkward questions during Sunday school. Pointing out that passages taken out of context don’t mean the same thing as they do in context didn’t make me very popular with the bible study group pastor either. In retrospect that’s not too surprising; no one likes a smart-ass.

I still kept going to church with the family and even went to some youth group meetings in high school. Of course, there were girls involved in the youth group, so that was a pretty good reason for going. Hot chicks asking you to go someplace provide good motivation when you’re a teenage guy.

My mother’s death and my family’s subsequent turmoil were the final nails in the coffin of my faith. While belief seemed to help my relatives, it had the opposite effect with me. I found things easier to deal with if there was no god involved.

I analogize it as the relationship between father and son. YHWH was an abusive father and I was better off not living under his roof. I grew up, figured out who I was, and didn’t really need to deal with his crap any more. He shaped who I was and had an indirect impact on my life through my upbringing, but wasn’t anybody I wanted to spend time with.

I actually went to one more bible study when I was in college. At that meeting, I had an epiphany. People go to church and bible studies because they need it in some way. Religion fills some need in their lives. I didn’t need religion because I had no gap that needed to be filled. I probably went to that meeting because I was, on some level, trying to answer a question. I got the answer I was looking for and never went back.

[IAMMYOWNGOD]

@jeffh3000

It basically sounds like what his interest here is not to explain his atheism (as he is not one) or debate but rather to bash and insult anyone who believes in christianity. Due to his obvious anger, this is probably all the result of a real or imagined problem at some point in his life created someone or a group of someones. He clearly has a hatred towards a person or a group of people and has mistakenly misplaced it torwards anyone that participates in any religion. He should instead come to his decisions based off inward thought and personal decision rather than poor actions of someone or a group of people he has known.

This is extremely unforunate and I feel bad for what ever experiences he has had in the past. Whether or not ultimately he becomes a true atheist, I hope that at some point in his life he comes to realize that all christians, jews, muslims or other organized religions are not the enemy that he has declared them to be here. The hurt and beliefs that he experienced was a particular group of individuals and not necessarily representative at all for all members of any religion.

Sorry guy, but you’re way off base. Just because I am obviously attacking deity-based religions doesn’t mean I’m coming from a place of hatred. I think the religious fanatics in Al-Quada are coming from a place of hatred. Same for the Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland, not to mention historical America.

My ultimate goal is to discredit all deity-based religions in a very, big, public way that would force people to deal with their sh*t. I’ve thought about starting a group to raise money for a national billboard campaign that would expose some of the less-savoury passages from the Bible publicly. I bet you would HATE that, wouldn’t you? No, it’s not about sheer hatred. I sincerely believe the world would/ will be a much better place without the benifit of deity-based religions.

Say - did you know that the Bible has been widely used by slave-owners to justify having slaves? Why wouldn’t they? The Bible makes it plain that this practice should not be banned but is in fact acceptable. What’s worse, “God” condones slavery. I’m absolutely convinced that human empathy and reasoning would’ve done away with slavery long ago if it weren’t for the Bible!

[IAMMYOWNGOD]

@clairobscur

I’m an atheist essentially because I can’t see any good reason why I should believe there’s a god, be it the christian god, Ra, or Quetzalcoatl.
As for the christian religion more specifically, some major reasons why I couldn’t buy in it :

-As you stated, many elements are blatantly false. Given that, why should I believe that the rest is true? That’s essentially the stance also taken by some people who believe in the innerancy of the bible, by the way.

-The bible and the gospels are filled with contradictions. How could I choose the “correct” interpretation? Believers pick and choose in the holy text. By picking and choosing in the gospels, by stressing elements that aren’t usually stressed, I could easily come up with a religious belief, backed by the holy scriptures, that would be completely weird from a christian point of view. And I mean, really weird. And despite not being traditionnal, it wouldn’t be any less supportable than the current established beliefs.

-A lot of elements found in the bible, and especially in the old testament, really aren’t appealing at all, and i would want to worship such a god. The only alternative, once again, is picking and choosing.

-Finally I find several of the fundamental beliefs of the christian religion particularily absurd. The concept of God “sacrificing Himself to Himself in order to allow Himself to changes the rules He Himself established” in particular. Or the Holy trinity. If for some reason I had to convert to one of the monotheistic religions, christiannism would be the last one on my list. And actually, I’d rather pick a dualist religion, which would make more sense to me.

Apart from that, I too think organized religions are a bad thing, and that we would be better off without them.

Well said, apart from the bad spelling (pelase note how perfect my writing is!)

[IAMMYOWNGOD]

@tomndebb

On the other hand, trying to imply that any derision of your arguments is necessarily an insult of your person (or that they are prompted by your “getting” anyone, as opposed to simply finding your logic flawed and your premises contrived), is not a particularly good way to establish a serious discussion.

And on the third hand: not-very-well masked references to trolling are also prohibited in this Forum.

[ /Moderator Mode ]

Didn’t mean to imply all POVs contrairey (sp?) to mine were insults. I just think some people don’t like it that I’m not particularly INTERNET-savey (sp?) or that I don’t go about things the way they think everyone should. I think some people try to discredit what I’m saying without actually confronting the issues I’m talking about. I welcome all POVs!

[Marley23]

@IAMMYOWNGOD

I’m absolutely convinced that human empathy and reasoning would’ve done away with slavery long ago if it weren’t for the Bible!

In a roundabout way, that’s very optimistic of you. More realistically, I’m sure you can find slavery in places that don’t have any of the Occidental religions.

Here’s the thing: you’ve got kind of a crusading attitude going on here, and that’s responsible for some of religion’s worst excesses and disasters.

[IAMMYOWNGOD]

@blowero

First, he didn’t say, “willing to consider a god figure if it can be proven”; he said, “I am an atheist only in that I am ‘against theism.’ I’m willing to entertain the possibility of a divine creator.” YOU are characterizing it as a person who doesn’t believe in God, but wouldn’t rule out the possibility if it could be proven. But he didn’t explain it that way; he explained it as being against God.

Second, that’s hardly a ‘technical’ difference.

With all due respect to your desire to dictate what we can or cannot say, I felt it was important to point out how this person’s views differ from those of many other atheists. And I’ll tell you why it’s important: The number one misconception held by theists about atheists has to do with why we are atheists. Far too many theists incorrectly believe that ALL atheists ‘hate’ God, or are angry at Christians, and that our beliefs stem from this hatred. This misconception tends to get propagated in churches and other places where everyone is of the same faith. So when theists do encounter atheists in real life, it’s crucial that they understand that one person does not speak for us all. It would be far too easy for a religious person to read the OP, and think, “Aha! I KNEW all those atheists were just hateful people who are angry at God.” So while the OP is certainly entitled to his opinion, I believe it’s necessary to point out that his view does not represent the views of most atheists.

Good point(s) but being “against God” and “against theism” are 2 different things!