To those who say rape is never ignored

Great Debates
21

Czarcasm, I trust Blue John answered your question?

Although ClawsofCatt is way exaggerrating her point (even bluejohn hasn’t smoked enough crack to claim that rape is never ignored), it is true that there are some folks whose kneejerk reaction is to dismiss a claim of rape. Even in a case this blatant, there are some folks who will cling to the hope that maybe it’s a political witch-hunt.

CoC, I think you’ll find that folks will tear you to shreds for hyperbole, but that if you make the point without hyperbole, people will agree with you – or if they disagree with you, at least some of them will do it thoughtfully and respectfully.

Daniel

22

Claws, Blue John went somewhat out of line (IMHO), but I think you have too.

There’s no question that rape reports are ignored. It should never happen, but unfortunately it does.

I have only one personal experience involving an alleged rape. My ex-wife, who, during our 1 and 1/2 year marriage had a tendency to disappear for 2 or 3 days at a time, did so on one particular occasion. A couple of days later I received a call at work that she was at a hospital in the emergency room. When I asked what had happened the woman (I don’t know who she was) said my ex had been raped. I immediately left work and went to get her.

When I got there I spoke to a police officer who had taken her statement. He told me she had been at a motel, and there had been drugs involved, and a friend of hers had brought her to the hospital. At this point I should say, I already had doubts about the story.

I took her home, and she stayed in bed for a day, then she seemed back to normal. It wasn’t long before she disappeared again. I had already felt used and did so even more at this time.

I talked to her about pursuing the matter with the police and she was evasive. That was a common occurrence, and it usually meant she had told me a lie and was trying to avoid the topic, such as when she told me a friend had gotten tickets to see a show, and I later learned from that friend that he hadn’t been there, rather it was one of her old boyfriends. (With whom I also caught her in bed once) As a result I had considerable doubt that she had in fact been raped, and suspected that she had simply gotten stoned, had sex with somebody, consensually, then went to a hospital because she was close to O.D.ing. (Based on her appearance and behavior when I picked her up, that’s a good possibility.) She simply said she’d been raped to avoid any uncomfortable questions.

Now, was I wrong to suspect that? There was a history of crying wolf and worse, and her subsequent behavior really made me suspicious. Quite frankly, had it been anybody else I would have been more likely to have believed the story.

I’m not suggesting that all or even a significant percentage of rape claims are false. On the contrary, and the only way to find out if they really are true or false is to investigate them. I merely offer this story as a personal experience, and one in which I felt bad for doubting, but then realized that I had reason to do so. I will never know what happened that weekend, and at this point I don’t care. I just remember how manipulated I felt at the time.

23

Where did you get this?? I think you are being very judgmental towards Blue John here. Do you have a link to back up your negative feelings towards him?

What?? So if someone disagrees with you they are automatically a fascist? Calm down and think logically.

How condescending.

If you are going to take Blue John to town on something he said, please provide a link to it so the rest of us can understand your POV.

24

ClawsOfCatt, we should never “laugh off” women being assaulted, however rape is rarely ignored and isn’t a real problem.

When I said “politically motivated” I was refering to the involvement of a rape crisis centre, these are political organisations with agendas and often with large government subsidies to justify. They are known for spreading propaganda and eliciting false or exagerated claims.

These senators were supporting draconian justice reforms such as the removal of the presumption of innocence, that’s fascist in my book.

DanielWithrow, this is not a “knee-jerk” reaction and this case is anything but “blatant”. This case is unproven allegations from a group of women with possible ulteriour motives and backing from an organisation that would benefit from this.

I’m not saying this case isn’t genuine, just that it’s anything but a foregone conclusion. Think with your head, not your knee.

25

Here is an article of the political nature of rape crisis centres.

26

You know ClawsOfCatt, it’s kind of hard to take you seriously if you’re going to be misrepresenting what people say. I think your credibility dropped a few points with the above remark.

27

I agree that CoC’s term “laugh off” was misplaced, but I think she’s on to something with regard to Blue John’s attitude. He clearly suggested that the women who cried rape did so because they wanted to cover up some kind of undefined rule-breaking. It does kinda indicate he actively seeks reasons to dismiss rape accusations, however nebulous those reasons may be. CoC has good reason for negative feelings toward BlueJohn, based on the content of his post.

What?? So if someone disagrees with you they are automatically a fascist? Calm down and think logically.

She’s thinking more logically than you are. She’s responding directly to BlueJohn’s accusation of fascism in his post. You appear to be just making a cheap accusation by taking a term out of context.

**If you are going to take Blue John to town on something he said, please provide a link to it so the rest of us can understand your POV. **

You should carefully read the posts, then maybe you would understand.

28

Blue John, are you SERIOUSLY trying to say that rape isn’t a “real problem?”

Or that the ignoring of it isn’t a real problem?

29

Are you serious? Rape isn’t a real problem? Are you actually saying that, or are you just trying to infuriate people?

When I hear a man say rape isn’t a real problem, I think with my knee – and where to put it.

30

I am truly sorry for your experiences, Photopat.
That said, I know there are two sides to every story. If your was was drugged, she might not want to report a rape because of the illegal activity involved.

31

Ignoring rape isn’t a big problem, that’s what I meant.

Rape itself isn’t the biggest problem in the world, either. Compared to poverty, suicide and heart disease, for example.

32

Suicide?! Give me a break. If someone wants to kill himself, let them. But forcing someone to have sex is different. It’s not of their own volition.

33

avalongod

So you’re saying men, as a group, couldn’t care less about rape?
:slight_smile:

Der Meister: People don’t commit suicide just because they feel like it. They do it because they have serious problems. Problems that are probably worse than simply being raped (after all, most people would prefer being raped to dying, and people who commit suicide would rather die than suffer through their problems, so by transitivity suggests their problems are worse than being raped). Plus, there’s the loved ones of people who commit suicide, who don’t choose to be in that position. I’m sure that there are a lot of people who would rather be arped than lose a loved one to suicide.

34

Lets go to the link. There is one actual rape that we have any details of. Seems like an underclasswoman went upstairs into some upperclassmen’s room, got drunk, and it appears they had sex. She claims rape. No where does it say the Air force “ignored” her charges- just that they punished her for several admited violations. Maybe the guys denied having sex. Maybe they admitted claimed consenusal sex. Maybe they denied everything.

So let us say we have a female safe cracker, who burgles a bank. She goes to the Police, and admits the burgarly, while also claiming the night watchman raped her. The Police go to the Guard, who denies rape. Then- the Police arrest the woman for her admited felony. Now- how is that “ignoring the rape”? Maybe they are continuing the rape investigation, but in the absence of such a handed-to-them-all-tied-up-in-a-bow confession, they might have to look for a little evidence.

So-MAYBE we have a rape. Maybe several. Maybe none. Until I see some convictions, I won’t know for sure. And then if there is a rape, we’ll have to hear from the Air Force what they did to investigate it. All we know is that they punished a female cadet for some admited transgressions.

Now- I wouldn’t be surprized with Tailhook & all, that there were some unsavoury things going on- harrassment, crude remarks, unwanted groping, etc. Sure- I can see that. And- yes, I can believe the AF tried to cover up some such incidents. Some of these may slip over the line into “sexual assault”-maybe worse. I don’t know.

But we don’t know if there was a “rape”. We know such were alleged. “Alleged” don’t make it a fact- and as had been said before “we deal in facts here”. We don’t even know what the AF “ignored”. So- what does the OP’s link prove; vis-a-vis “rape being ignored”? Nothing. Has it happened? Likely, somewhere, sometime. But not by this cite.

35

Let’s think this through. If the woman went to the room and had consensual sex why would she admit it? What gain would there be? Why mention it at all?
If she was raped, then the fact that she was breaking rules at the time add credibility to her story. She now faces punishment for admitting she was in the room. That tells me she was raped and she came forward even though she knew she could be reprimanded.

That would imply there was some sort of an investigation into the charges.

Look, how can you punish a woman for being in a man’s room if the man denies she was in the room? And if he claims consensual sex, why isn’t HE punished? If he denies sex, the why don’t we have an investigation?

What I really want to know, though, is why are some men so eager to cry that rape doesn’t happen? Why are they so eager to invent theoretically excuses when they don’t know what happened? Why stand in the way of investigations? Why don’t they want rapists caught and punished?

36

Well, claws- maybe she was accused of drinking & being in that room, and then she said it was rape to get out of the charges. Or- maybe not.

Nor do we have any idea of what investigaton went on. Maybe there was a quicky cursorary investigation- designed to cover up more that it revealed. Or- maybe there was a full investigation. The point is- we don’t know what sort of investigation there was, nor what happened. The AF is enjoined to keep that sort of stuff secret until it is finalized.

So all we have is what some cadets SAY happened. Hardly a single fact at all.

Why are you so eager to cry “rape” when we don’t know what happened? Right now we know crap about this. It is too early to say “rape” and it is too early to say “no rape”. Read my post dammit. “MAYBE we have a rape, maybe several, maybe none.” It is also too early to say what the AF did in the way of an investigation- or a cover up. Hey look- I want to know what really happened- and when we do, the punishment should fall upon the guilty. What I am not willing to do is assign guilt based upon the sex of the parties involved.

What we need are facts- which are in damn short supply.

37

What in the world do you mean! It’s right there in the papers if you would look at them.

[quote]
Dozens of female cadets claim they were punished after telling the school they were sexually assaulted by classmates.
The women, who asked that their names be kept confidential, all told Ferrugia similar stories about being afraid to report sexual attacks by fellow cadets. Those who did report and seek help from academy officials say they suffered retaliation through reprimands and threats of expulsion.

[quote]

She WASN’T accused of drinking. She WASN’T reported for any violation before REPORTING HIM. What about this is so difficult to understand?

Again, what do you mean! The “investigation” was so flawed that it has become a news story all by itself.

Rot! The fact that there is NOW an investigation is all over the news.

Curious that DOZENS of women relating nearly indentical stories is “hardly a single fact at all.”

Eager to cry rape! after dozens go by and the good old boys find this just to their liking.
I’ve read your posts, and it’s obvious you are not going to read any news account that doesn’t fit the perspective of lesbian amazons chopping of weenies of poor male victims just for the fun of it.

The facts are there. And denial is in plentiful supply.

38

“Dozens of women say…” is not proof of rape. There are no 'facts" just 3rd party accusations, and hearsay evidence. However, even if one person say “I was raped”- that does not a rape make. All that means is that someone CLAIMED they were raped.

Still no facts. Just polemics, suppositions, charges & rhetoric. Someday, maybe we will have facts, and when we do, I will join you in a cry for the guilty to be punished- no matter who they are, or what sex they are.

39

Rape enablers and rape defenders will never get past the fact that it IS a fact that dozens of women have made accusations.
At that stage, there should have been a legitimate investigation. Instead, the academy took actions that were so suspicious that it is a FACT that their investigation is now being condemned.
Look, DrDeth, if you got raped and the police REFUSED to investigate, we could all throw it back in your face that it is just an accusation without facts. The only way to ESTABLISH fact is to have an investigation. If they refused to have a legitimate investigation, they won’t ever establish any facts – which is exactly what rape enablers want.