To tip or not to tip?

I find it hard to believe that this topic hasn’t been debated here before, but i couldn’t find it anywhere, so here goes.

I’m interested in the subject of tipping (waiters, cab drivers etc.). Having moved to the US from Australia, a country where tipping is generally not expected, i find the whole culture of tipping interesting, and would like to know what people think of it.

For example, does anyone think that the onus for paying an employee should rest on the employer, not the customer? And to what extent is it really acceptable not to leave a tip if the service has been crap?

An argument i have sometimes heard for tipping is that it keeps prices down (e.g. food in restaurants) and if tipping stops then wages, hence prices, would go up. First of all, would this shifting of responsibility be a problem? Second, if the argument holds, why is it that eating out seems to be considerably cheaper in Sydney (a city of over 3 million with high rents) than it is in my current city of Baltimore, a city with a struggling downtown and relatively low rents? And that difference is to do with more than just the exchange rate - it also seems to be cheaper in Sydney compared to incomes in that city.

Also, should the tipping percentage be higher in fancy restaurants than at your local cafe? If tipping is based on the amount of work actually done by the waiter, i would argue ‘no’, as the staff in cheap cafes and chain restaurants are often worked considerably harder than those in fine dining establishments. I know this both from observation and from personal experience, having worked in all types of restaurants and hotels in Australia, Canada, and Britain. On the other, is tipping a reflection of the level of decorum and finesse achieved by the staff, and the experience required to work in a fancy joint?

Finally, i don’t want anyone to misconstrue this question as an exhortation not to tip. Having worked in Canada, where tipping made up a large proportion of my income, i know how important gratuities are to service workers. I consider myself a pretty generous tipper when i eat out. And i know that many waiters, bartenders etc. make really good money. It is more a moral question about whether there is a better way of doing things.

michael.

The idea of tipping is to reward the level or quality of service with a commensurate tip. So, if you get great service in an expensive restaurant, which normally has a relatively low number of customers for a given table, then you would reward this with a nice tip. The server working in a high turnover restaurant may not make the same tip per table, but may in the end make just as much money. (I have worked as a waiter in both kinds of places)

The idea is that in places where the server is paid by the customer versus the employer is in essence working for the customer and will do his/her best to give you a good dining experience. That’s the theory, at least, actually results may vary.

In some European countries, where there is very little concept of customer service and it is difficult to fire employees and there is no real tipping I have had some horrible service, but also sometimes good service. Kind of hit or miss.

In Thailand where (typically) there is minimal tipping, I have had some excellent service, maybe because it is more engrained in the culture.

Question back to you: I was in Toronto last week and didn’t know whether to tip, and if so, how much. When I worked as a waiter in Florida the Canadians would often not tip, and I was told that this was because of the way it was back home. [sub]we always dreaded the Canadians…[/sub]

Answering your last question first, as far as i’m aware tipping is the norm in Canada. My only experience as a waiter there was in Vancouver, but on trips to Toronto and Monteal my friends in both cities assured me that tipping was obligatory. You must have run into some cheap bastard Canadians.

On the subject of tips and the quality of the place, you are right that waiters in a quality restaurant generally have fewer customers than those in a high turnover place, but the prices are also commensurately higher. So, working a shift in a quality place might see you turn over, say, ten tables at $200 a table, while a high turnover joint might see you serve 40 tables at $50 a table in a shift. Both give a total take of $2,000, so why should you tip the waiter in the expensive restaurant at a higher percentage? Of course, i have rounded my numbers here for the sake of convenience, but i’m sure you get what i’m trying to say.

Now, i agree with you that “The idea is that in places where the server is paid by the customer versus the employer is in essence working for the customer and will do his/her best to give you a good dining experience.” If this is the logic, why not extend it to every service industry - the post office, retail stores, even universites. You could pay Harvard $2,000 a year instead of $25,000, and hand ut tips to your professors based on ‘performace’ (just kidding). More seriously, the problem i have with tipping is not so much what happens when a restaurant is busy, but what happens when it’s quiet. Apart from providing the best possible service, waiters can do little about getting customers into the seats - that relies on the marketing done by the employer and the quality of the food. On quiet days, waiters can make almost nothing - i’m sure you’ve had days like that yourself?

What really gets me here in the US is that, despite the horrendously low minimum wages set in various parts of the country, people who work as waiters have told me that, because they get tips, employers are legally allowed to pay them half of the minimum wage. At least this is apparently the case in Maryland - i don’t know if it’s a national thing. Bad luck if you have a quite day - you might just earn your busfare home.

And on those Canadians you encountered: one thing that really gets my goat is people who go to places where tipping is expected and refuse to tip on the grounds that “we don’t do it at home.” I have known some Australians and English who adopt that attitude, and it is the most irresponsible thing i’ve ever heard. They often change their tune when you tell them that their waiter is probably working for about two or three bucks an hour. If you have the money to travel, you should find the money to respect the local way of doing things.

michael.

Just one caveat I wanted to throw at you. The question wasn’t really directed at this, and I frankly don’t have the time to give the kind of response I’d like to on the topic at the momnet, but this stuck out at me.

I don’t think you should try and gage “cost of living” based on rents in the two cities in question. I’ve never been to either city, so I can’t say anything of true substance, but I don’t think comparing rent prices has any bearing whatsoever on the cost of food.

Rent prices are driven by demand (working population) and availablility. Rent prices tend to spike in densely populated areas. For example two cities with very similar economies and very similar living styles may have vastly different rent prices when space is at a premium. My example of this would be Chicago, New York and San Fransisco. The latter two have space at an absolute premium and their rent prices are the highest in the world. Chicago, while not cheap, has very noticably lower rent prices even though the economies of the cities are very similar. Not a perfect example, bu i think it makes my point. One can also extract that because food supply in these three cities is pretty similar their prices are all very similar, even if their rents are not.

That leads to the point, do not assume that because rent prices are similar or even higher in Sydney that it would follow that food costs would also be the same or higher. Its simply a matter of social and economical demand vs supply.

Oh, Australian, not Austria, then g’day! Welcome to the good old U.S. of A.

Tip people who are not owners (except hair salons, in which case you tip owners too) for providing personal service, like food serving, taxi driving, restroom attendant (I’ve only seen one in the U.S., so that is rare), shoe shine boys/girls, etc. 15 percent for good service. If you are a regular 15 percent is acceptable, but 20 percent will mean everyone in the place knows you fondly. Do not tip food servers where the food is handed to you over the counter, like delis or MacDonalds.

I can see how you might have misinterpreted what i meant - i should have been clearer. I wasn’t talking about rents in the general sense of people looking for a place to live, but rather referring to the fact that rent makes up a considerable proportion of the outlay of most restaurants in large cities. Not much space in most such cities is actually available for outright purchase, especially in desirable areas (waterfront etc.), so restaurants have a large monthly outlay that needs to be covered, and the only way for a restaurant to cover expenses is by getting money from customers (or acting as a front for mob activity, if you watch too much TV). What i’m saying is that i bet that the average cost of renting a commercial premises in downtown Sydney is greater than that for renting a similar place in a city such as Baltimore, which has lots of spare space for rent. Consequently, a Sydney (or San Fransisco, or New York, or London) restauranteur has a larger fixed cost to worry about than one in Baltimore or Dayton, even before he or she has to think about buying furnishings, food, hiring staff etc.

As a bona fide Canadian, I can assure you that tipping here is obligatory, from 10-15% on average (in the restaurant industry). Outside of restaurants, it is pretty much an individual’s decision. Me, I tip my barber and the occasional taxi driver, as a matter of habit.

As for the poor tipping in Florida, the most likely explanation is that you were dealing with retirees(sp?), a demographic reknown for its miserlyness, regardless of nationality.

It hasn’t been debated here before because this is not a debating forum. Off to Great Debates.

bibliophage
moderator, GQ

This Australian agrees. A lot of overseas waiters and service people roll their eyes heavenward when they hear an Australian accent because they know what’s going to end up happening. As a firm believer in the “when in Rome” idea, I do make an effort to learn or ask about the tipping practices (along with any other relevant customs) in my destination country before I get there. It must be said, however, that I have once or twice found myself in embarrassing tipping situations overseas albeit with the best of intentions, simply because like most Aussies, I’m just not very good at the whole thing. It doesn’t come naturally. I’ve walked out of a Hong Kong restaurant thinking, “uh oh. No wonder that waiter was smiling when I left”, just as I have had Thai limo drivers muttering curses to the gods. The same applies for bargaining (we tend to pay sticker price for everything other than houses or cars). The other side to this is often seen when a new Asian immigrant in Australia tries to buy something. The shopkeepers tend not to like people spending twenty minutes haggling -for two apples.

To answer the OP, I can only give the Australian custom (maybe other Dopers from various countries can add to the list).
In Australia:
FAST FOOD PLACES: Never tip.
RESTAURANTS: If it was just a cheap lunch or something, leave the coins behind, ie. up to the next $5. If you are having an expensive dinner, 10% is a good standby figure. Don’t feel compelled to tip; if the service was no good, take every last cent.
TAXIS: This should be a seperate category as the uniquely Australian custom I am about to describe isn’t really tipping at all. It’s kinda obligatory. Unless the service was especially bad, passengers traditionally round the change up to the nearest dollar (maybe an extra buck or two if you really want to give a “tip”). But if the fare is something like $20.40 (or even $21 0r $22 -if the he’s in a good mood), the cabbie will often say, “$20 will do, mate”. Of course, your American accent might count against you with some taxi drivers who will try to squeeze a tip out of you.

A previous poster mentioned tipping not being particularly customary in Thailand. It is starting to gain a foothold there in the tourist areas, and will often be expected of Westerners. Interestingly, if a Thai has had extremely bad service, he or she will leave a tip of one Baht. This is a grave insult, and is much worse than not tipping at all.

Actually, Loaded Dog, I’ve never tipped in Australia. When I was going through university, I worked as a bar tender and waiter at a 5 star hotel: I was always amazed whenever I received tips - and they were always from Americans, with the sole exception of an English expat who had been working in Saudi Arabia and had decided to sit out the Gulf War in Perth, who gave me my largest tip ever of $20.

Here in Hong Kong, as you say, no one tips - but that is because an there is an in-built service charge of 10% on your bill. Ostensibly, that is supposed to go to the floor staff, but in practice (according to a recent newspaper report on the subject) goes to the owner. If I get very good service here I might tip, by leaving the change.

As a tourist in LA in 1988, I have vivid memories of a bus driver on a tour of Hollywood, and his hand written sign near the exit of the bus, which said, “Tipping is our way of life here - please be generous”. Obviously, putting up with foreigners and their ignorance of tipping drove him to draw to their attention the local cultural practice. I was a little offended at first - a bus driver requesting, in writing, a tip? - but after thinking about it, thought it was a pretty sensible thing to do.

Watch the opening scene of Resevoir Dogs.

“Do not tip food servers where the food is handed to you over the counter, like delis or MacDonalds.”

One small exception: It is polite, though not by any means required, to drop a small tip into the jar at, say, a coffee shop like the huge Coffee Empire I work for. Usually people just drop any change they don’t want into the jar, and the more affluent (and the cops and firefighters whom we never charge for drinks) will drop a dollar bill in there. In my store, at least, the tips are divided equally based on the number of hours worked, and that money pays for my groceries.

This thread explains one excellent reason why the tip system is a bad idea.

In the more expensive place I would expect to receive better service. This may mean more people included in the service, perhaps a sommelier to help with the wine selection, a more informed opinion on the foods, etc. You can also get this in more downscale places, but I don’t expect it there. (When I have some time to think it through a bit more I can give you some examples of restaurants in Baltimore to gauge this, although the best places in Baltimore tend to be downscale…mmmm, Cross Street Market)

Actually, not that I recall. Perhaps its my strange IRL personality, but I had a knack for pulling better tips on slow days when I had time than during the busy periods. There are a lot of “tricks” to this that separate good servers from bad servers. A good server knows when to entertain and when to remain unobtrusive. Its kind of an art. I can think of a few places where good service would make the experience so enjoyable that I would return to a place even if the food were so-so. I can likewise think of a few places where I would never return, simply because the service was abysmal, regardless of the quality of the food.

This is a national thing. But bear in mind, although I may not be the norm, it took me two years after graduating college and working in the IT field before I took home, per year, more than my take home as a waiter. I had to work two jobs, probably total about 55-60 hours a week, but that is often less than I work now. Not everyone can or will do that. But I didn’t ever meet a server that made less than minimum wage, unless they were just horrible, and then they soon found another line of work.

Also, for the record, I did tip in Toronto, normally about 10-15%, just to be safe. At one place where my colleague and I found the service to be great, and they bent over backwards for some special requests, I left about 25%.

This post is going to edge over into IMHO territory, but…

I am a waitperson’s dream.

If the person giving me food is even half-way attentive, s/he gets at LEAST - at a BARE minimum - 20%.

I figure that if I can afford to spend $X.00 on a meal, I can afford to top that off on a tip. If I can’t afford that much on a meal? I eat at home. I tipped a cabbie in DC about 30% of the fare, and I tip my hair person about 25%. A few short hours ago I was tipping my barmaid a buck for every $2.75 drink I was poured.

Now. This is not to say I haven’t left a $0.01US tip, because I have. I’ve also left, on a bill of $28.34, a tip of $0.66.

But my brother at one time was a bartender, and my sister has been a bartender and waitress, and I watched them run their asses off - on their feet for eight hours a day, dealing with drunks and/or assholes…yeah, they deserve my money.

Is it right? I dunno. As the US moves from an industrial- to service-based economy, I don’t think it will be too very long before waiters and waitresses and bank tellers and customer service types and etc. form a union and are paid wages commensurate with their skills - IOW, no more under-the-table paychecks or $3/hour pay scales - at which time I’d hope the whole tipping thing would go the way of the dinosaur. Mainly so I will no longer be embarrassed when my grandfather leaves a 50 cent tip on a $30 bill :stuck_out_tongue:

Here in Mexico, Canadians are notorious for poor tipping. The waiters here can’t figure out why they’re so tight.

There is even a joke about this:

What’s the difference between a Canadian and a canoe?

Answer: A canoe tips!

I wanst going to enter this debate because I figured someone else would probably express my thoughts but amazingly they haven’t.

I dont mind tipping when its an unexpected gratuity freely given as a reward for a job well done.

But I hate it when it is treated as expected as appears to be the case in the States.

Im from the UK, I visited the States once. I got into a taxi at the airport and said “How much to the Hotel?”. The driver replied “$10”. So we arrive at the Hotel, I hand over $10, the agreed sum, and then the driver starts telling me that I have to give him another dollar as a tip because that is the “custom” in the US.

If the cost of the taxi fare to the Hotel is not, in fact, $10 but is $11 then the driver should tell me that at the outset.

We made a legal contract when we agreed the price but it seems there was a hidden term in the contract that only one of the parties to that contract was aware of.

I dont like hidden clauses - when I enter into a contract, I like to have an equal state of knowledge as my co-contractor has.

You should not expect a tip, you should be pleased when it is given because it is a bonus.

If tips mean we all get cheap food then Id rather pay more for the food than have to deal with hidden terms.

Whilst in the States I played along with this tipping out of respect for local “custom” but that doesnt mean I have to agree with it.

A tip is a bonus not a constitutional right. And I have serious reservations about its status as a “custom” as well.

As a matter of principle i tend to agree with you, but it will take more than just a change of habit; it will actually require changes to legislation. As i pointed out in one of my previous posts:

And the minimum wage that they cut in half is not very high to start with. For the system to change would require quite an effort in many different areas.

Most of the people I know who go to Mexico are usually on an “all-inclusive” package of some kind, and are often students. I wouldn’t imagine they would be keen to tip in a scenario where everything is paid for, especially witin the confines of a resort. And once away from the resort, maybe this mentality just sticks with them. Of course, my fellow Canucks may just be cheaper than I give them credit for.

Another thought… maybe the only way Canadians can afford to travel with a currency so devalued vs. the US dollar is to conserve money by not tipping. Or maybe we’re just a buncha misers…

Bah humbug!

xanakis:

But the waitstaff are TAXED on their tips-that’s where their living comes from. You may not like the system, but why take it out on some poor (and I do mean poor-read some of the stories at customerssuck.com ) waitron? They depend on that for a living. When you don’t tip them, they LOSE money.

I’m sure most staff would rather be paid a decent wage rather than have to rely on tips-but we’re not going to change it.