I never said that. Does that help? Hitler may have come to power by being a demagogue, as I said in my last post, but if it were not for the help of industry, he would have been able to do absolutely nothing outside of Germany.
No, you were wrong. You said I said something I didn’t say. I attempted to clarify. That is NOT changing the goal posts.
“Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power.” – Benito Mussolini …
Like you said, arguing this is not worth hijacking the thread. You are trying to say I said things I didn’t say, and any attempt for me to clarify what I was trying to say will be referred to as ‘moving the goalposts’.
Which he was the legally and lawfully elected ruler of, with absolute dictatorial powers, combined with wide-spread popularity and public support, and the aboslute obedience of the military, and his own private army.
Yea, but y’know, it’s all because of those wealthy industrialists.
I try not to snark, but seriously mswas, :rolleyes: . You have failed to provide even one shred of evidence that wealthy backers was the cause or even a significant cause of Hitler’s rise to power. Your cute uote from Mussolini says… nothing at all. Yep, absolute dictators want to control industry and finance, too. Amazingly, you are not the first man in history to have noticed this. They kinda did this is, oh, a hundred of so different cases. And mysteriously, these “mergers” of industry and finance or whatnot and politics always emerged with politics on top in control. Odd, ain’t it. It’s almost as if absolute dictators just took over everything, huh?
You are producing with great flourish the most blindingly obvious things and seemt to be amazed at them. Here’s a hint: no one else is in the least bit surprised or even particularly interested.
Yes, wrong about the thing I didn’t say. I concede that.
About the thing I did say however, Hitler could never have conquered Europe without the support of the Industrialists. Having elected power does not guarantee the cooperation of the body politic. Germany COULD have been in turmoil. It COULD have been another corrupt dictatorship where it’s more about the dictator struggling to maintain power internally, but it wasn’t. He consolidated power with the industrialists, turned the industry into a war machine, and successfully blitzed mainland Europe. He did that, with the help of industrialists, and could not have done it without their help. Or at the very least it would have been far more difficult.
So I will concede that the thing I never said, that everyone feels the need to correct is wrong. In that case I’m glad I didn’t say it.
No…but having a grass roots movement that was willing and even eager to do public violence helps a lot. What you don’t seem to be able to grasp here is that by the time Hither got the industrialists (and the military) behind him he ALREADY had ultimate power in Germany. Your argument in short is ridiculous. You’ve shifted from what you were originally responding too (which I’ve already quoted…and basically is the reason everyone but you thinks you said what you said) to ‘Hitler could never have conquered Europe without the support of the Industrialists.’ This is true, but doesn’t really say anything. Its like saying the Communist party in Russia couldn’t have done anything without the industrial might of Russia behind them. Well duh. However, by the time that power WAS behind them it was a foregone conclusion. It was get behind the bus…or get run over by it.
Hitlers BASE, what all his power stemmed FROM, was that violent group of ex-vets, jobless men, bitter from the defeat of Germany in WWI and looking for someone to take it out on. Industrialists (and everyone else in Germany) came on board because they were by and large FORCED to come on board. Same with the military. Because by the time Hitler moved from chancellor to absolute dictator that small (violent) core of dedicated had swelled to encompass a large percentage of the German population. Either get on the bus or its going to roll over you.
But it’s wrong to imagine that the Nazis suddenly achieved power when they finally got the “backing” of the industrialists. It’s more correct to say that the Nazi party seized absolute power in Germany, and any industrialists who didn’t “back” them would find themselves in a camp. By that point EVERYOPNE in Germany backed the Nazis because to do otherwise was to be ruined. The industrialists cooperated because they had no choice, no more than the average non-Nazi wehrmacht soldier had a choice. They could either go along with the Nazi agenda or get crushed.
And I also disagree with your idea that by getting the support of the industrialists Hitler was able to export his dictatorship, while other dictatorships without support of the industrialists simply struggled to maintain internal power. Thing is, Nazi Germany was different that almost every other dictatorship in that Germany before the Nazi takeover was one of the most scientifically, politically, culturally, and industrially advanced countries in the world.
Most tin-pot dictators can’t hope to invade France because they are dictators of third world backwater countries. They HAVE no industry, there are no industrialists to get support FROM. Italy and Spain were fascist as well, but they were second-rate economic powers. Germany was a first rank country. And the decision to start invading every neighboring country was entirely Hitler’s. Given another, more rational, more cautious dictator and WWII might never have happened. Hitler’s military adventures were opposed by the General Staff, it took a victorious string of victories by Hitler’s brinksmanship before the Germans were convinced they couldn’t lose. The Rhineland, the Sudatenland, the Anchluss, the Danzig Corridor, Hitler achieved a string of territorial conquests without firing a shot, which gave him the prestige to order the invasion of Poland, and the quick victory there gave him the power to order the invasion of France, Norway, etc. And the quick victories there let him invade Russia, which almost succeeded.
But this is almost exactly how we would imagine the first aristocracies arose at the dawn of history. The first Pharaoh was probably simply the person who had the most influential friends; using these contacts he was able to unite Upper and Lower Egypt, and the rest is history. They may not have had the concept of “money” in those days, but wealth and influence was well understood.