To what extent should homeschoolers be regulated?

Great Debates
161

This is the real reason I think many people are wary about homeschooling. It isn’t really about making sure children get a proper education it’s about making sure children conform to cultural norms. Aside from college, I haven’t encountered any social environment that comes at all close to resembling the social environment of my school. I understand that school provides us all with a common culture bedrock but I fail to see why home schooled children cannot learn about society or how to integrate within it. Hell, maybe they’re better adjusted because they don’t live in an environment that segregates people by age.

Instead of mocking others you might want to consider that parents might have a legitimate problem with some of the programs taught at schools. For example, I have a serious problem with the way organizations like DARE and MADD are allowed to spew their spin on drugs and alcohol in schools.

Odesio

162

Because you can’t “learn” about integrating into society by reading about it. You have to do it. I can’t reasonably expect to be familiarized and comfortable with, say, Japanese or Indian culture just because I read “foreign cultures and societies for dummies”

I mean most homeschooling organizations specifically endorse and recommend programs for homeschooled kids to have social interaction

I don’t think many are wary about the concept of homeschooling because it will create anti-social fringe children who can’t integrate into society - you can play catch up pretty quick with this stuff, most homeschooling as mentioned has group social interaction, and worst comes to worst, small numbers of socially marginalized are ignorable by the larger society.

I think people are wary that it isn’t an adequate way to educate society’s children, either because they’re unsure that it’s a viable educational option (i don’t think so) or because they’re unsure that it’s performed properly by the teacher-parent (i think so, but can be mitigated with proper oversight)

The “teachable moment maximizing” response to this would be to explain to your children why DAREs and MADDs spin on things is arguably wrong - and done so with fact-based analysis. I would argue that being a child being exposed to crap you, as a parent, find objectionable enhances the scholastic environment, because it exposes your child to opposing viewpoints and critical analysis. If your opposing viewpoints on the matter are so trenchant, or the spin your child is getting is so biased, you should have no problem easily presenting counterexamples.

If everything is unoffensive, plain-jane fact learning, school is pointless.

(to those that think i’m a crypto creationist, i’m not; to those creationists: this doesn’t work in your subject matter because opinions on creationism are spirit/faith based and thus not really appropriate for critical analysis. to the extent that there are critical arguments to be made about creationist theory itself, it’s too technically complex to bring up in high school)

163

I can think of many, many, many things I personally would consider more important in a teacher educating my children than the level of formal education they have. But like I said, I’m biased.

Most of the people who have taught me valuable things had no teaching degree, and many had never attended college. Only one or two of my teachers in public school imparted anything worth knowing, and that was because they were intelligent and interesting people who were able to engage me on a personal level, not because they had a teaching degree. More bias. I hated school with a fiery passion from 1st grade onward. I am anticipating that a child of mine will also be an ornery cuss who needs a high level of adult involvement and as little time as possible sitting in a desk doing worksheets in order to not hate education.

164

That’s fine. No one here is arguing against homeschooling (at least, most of us aren’t) just that it just needs a little more accountability.

And not all schools involve sitting at a desk doing worksheets. At my kids’ elementary school there are no desks at all, the kids sit on the floor. Plus there are Waldorf schools, Montessori, and lots of other 'alternative schools.

The choice isn’t desks and worksheet vs. homeschooling. There’s a huge middle ground.

165

Home schooled kids don’t go to public school but that doesn’t mean they’re completely separated from the rest of society. They socialize with other human beings, kids, etc.

I’m not the one who argued that home schooled kids cannot integrate into society.

Nope, I still think most people are wary because home schooling is what those “other” people do instead of what us nice normal people do. Cries of making sure our kids are educated are just a smokescreen. (Not for all of the critics but for a lot of them I think.)

Great, so I have to compete with the state who is indoctrinating my child to see things their way through programs from 1st through 12th grade? No thanks.

The DARE and MADD programs at schools are not designed to encourage critical analysis. If it were then the discussions about alcohol and drugs would not be so one sided.

Everything in public schools is pretty much plain Jane fact learning precisely because administrators have to appease everyone. Pick up a high school history book and marvel at the boredom.

Odesio

166

I agree, but doesn’t accountability = regulation? I think the empirical data indicates overwhelmingly that home-schooled children are in general provided with superior education to traditionally schooled children. Even “unschooling” appears to generate intelligent well adjusted human beings.

Regulation as defined by many can only be done within the constraints of traditional schooling, thus involveing tests/exams. That is not good or worthwhile regulation imo. Here in Ontario, homeschooling parents were interviewed once every year or so by a school board officer responsible for home-schoolers (This was a few years ago, so may have changed) They discussed education approach/philosophy and general progress of our children. I do not know what powers existed if they considered our education was lacking, but I guess it was some degree of accountability/regulation.

167

No, it doesn’t. We just went through that. There is no such information that exists in reality and pretending that there is does a disservice to the debate.

The fact is that we do not know what the overall effectiveness of homeschooling is versus public schooling, especially since any systemic diagnostic measures have been strongly resisted by much of the homeschooling community thus far.

168

I care about my family more than a total stranger, but I wouldn’t consider myself more capable than a doctor if they’re sick. I wouldn’t consider myself more capable than a lawyer if I needed someone to defend them. “Caring about them more” isn’t a qualification - it’s potentially a reason that might lead to an interest in gaining those qualifications, but it’s certainly not without its flaws.

169

Apologies as I am a late entry into this thread, and admit I have not read all the comments. However it is pretty easy to find data that supports home-schooling is successful in providing good academic performance

From www.ericdigests.org/2000-3/home.htm

Almost 25% of home school students were enrolled one or more grades above their age-level peers in public and private schools.

Home school student achievement test scores were exceptionally high. The median scores for every subtest at every grade (typically in the 70th to 80th percentile) were well above those of public and Catholic/Private school students.

On average, home school students in grades 1 to 4 performed one grade level above their age-level public/private school peers on achievement tests.

Students who had been home schooled their entire academic life had higher scholastic achievement test scores than students who had also attended other educational programs.

My personal observations would also augment these observations

170

No. These are the exact same methodological errors I just pointed out.

"In Spring 1998, 39,607 home school students contracted to take the Iowa Tests of Basic Skills (ITBS; grades K-8) or the Tests of Achievement and Proficiency (TAP; grades 9-12) through Bob Jones University Press Testing and Evaluation Service. Students were given an achievement test and their parents were asked to complete a questionnaire entitled "Voluntary Home School Demographic Survey."A total of 20,760 students in 11,930 families provided useable questionnaires with corresponding achievement tests. The achievement test and questionnaire results were combined to form the dataset used in the study. "

So, yet again, we have a double self-selected group, nor was there any sound methodological control or comparison going on. And so on.

To say nothing of the sloppy and imprecise language that they use in many cases…

And, again, folks really should read their cites.

171

Agreed with all points. However I won’t be able to afford the kind of ‘real’ school that I feel is a better option than the traditional sort. Public schooling (schools in my area are blue ribbon) or home schooling will be my options. I am inclined to let them decide for themselves - start them in school with the option to be homeschooled at any point if they don’t like it. Lots of kids like public school.

If I had $4,000-$10,000 of disposable income per child per year, they would go to Montessori. Chances of this happening are slim to none, LOL.

I didn’t integrate into society until I got a job. In fact I was pretty socially crippled after years of school - I was intimidated by people older than myself. How does spending 6 hours per day sitting a room with one adult and 28 kids the same age as you who you are not allowed to speak with the majority of the time teach you anything about society? I haven’t been stuck in a room with 28 peers since 11th grade. Thank goodness.

Most homeschooling families I know make a point of taking their children out into the community to interact with many different kinds of people. They also give them ample time to play and interact with children their own age through sports, scouts, and homeschooling groups. This strikes me as a more well-rounded lifestyle than the typical routine of kids I know: 1 hour with mom in the morning, 6 hours of school, 3-4 hours of after-school care or activities/lessons, and 2-3 hours at home with family (some of that time spent doing homework).

172

What makes someone qualified to be a teacher?

173

What makes someone qualified to be a (good) lawyer? What makes someone qualified to be a (good) plumber? What makes someone qualified to be a (good) butcher? What makes someone qualified to be a (good) truck driver?

Oddly enough, teaching is one of the very few professions which much of the populace tends to assume they can do just as well if not better than trained, practiced professionals.

174

That does appear to be the same data that it took a whole bunch of posts to finally put to rest.

Look, I’m in favor of homeschooling. I think it stands to reason that a well-intentioned parent can do better in educating a child than a teacher with less of a stake in the child’s upbringing who is also dealing with a couple dozen extra kids. It stands to reason that because of all the bureaucratic overhead and other extra-pedagogical bullshit a school must deal with, education can be done more efficiently (in terms of the child’s time) at home, leaving more time for non-classroom type educational experiences from which the child may benefit. I suspect that home education is non-trivially superior to school.

However, we have already seen that the numbers that are supposed to bear this out don’t. The fact that parents get to choose whether or not to report their childrens’ scores seriously biases the given study in favor of homeschoolers. That data is meaningless. If the pro-homeschool crowd insists on clinging to that one demonstrably flawed study, that bad data will drive out the possibility of finding good data. Lack of empirical evidence is less damning than cleaving to a badly done study whose sole virtue is that it concludes what we want to believe.

There is something to be said for a study of pedagogy itself, but let’s not take for granted that the training teachers receive is the solid gold standard. The Education departments at most universities are notorious for their lax standards, their easy grading, for their course-credit giveaways. Educational departments excrete a legion of dolts who mostly learned a lot of fashionable jargon and self-congratulatory aphorisms. I’m being awfully cynical, I suppose, but consider at least this: those who are lacking professional training in education may not be lacking much.

There is a legitimate reason to fear that a homeschooling parent may be doing a disservice to a child. Perhaps the parent wants to teach the child a nerf version of science that doesn’t provoke any cosmological quandries. Maybe the parent fears that having the child go out in public will expose evidence of abuse and neglect. I haven’t seen any evidence that these things happen, but these are not exactly absurd scenarios, nor are they likely to be absent from the minds of people pushing for more regulation.

On the other hand, I can also see education professionals finding in the homeschooling movement a critique and undermining of their own credibility. Parents, too, are often sensitive to implied comparisons and may see in the choice to homeschool a criticism of their own parenting choices. Any regulation would almost certainly put the power in the hands of those with an interest in discrediting a competing institution.

175

Well, that’s bad enough, but it’s not the only thing. We also see that parents have to first self-select to take the tests in the first place (I’d bet we’d see much different results if it was the cohort of voluntary homeschooled test takers versus the cohort of voluntary pulic schooled test takers). We also see that the samples for homeschoolers are not at all representative of the nation as a whole; comparing someone whose family makes 70K a year, has a parent at home full time and their own PC versus a single mother in an urban hellhole is hardly a good metric.

Of course, as one of the strongest predictive (and causative) factors of good academic performance in the public school is parental care/involvement, I’m not even certain that we’ve seen good experimental design to control for all the correct variables.

P.S. That’s actually not the only study. Specifically the homeschoool advocacy group (also a pack of fraudsters) that ITR loves linking to and has had debunked for him many times? Well, they simply love that kind of study. I think they’ve run at least half a dozen of them, and they all look the same because they’re all deliberately constructed to cook the data and they’re all presented in such a way to hide that fact from most people who aren’t trained in research methodology. I don’t use the word “fraud” lightly, I assure you.

I wasn’t, actually. My point was that, for any profession, the rank of “quality this or that” goes to those who have some degree of natural aptitude, decent training and/or the ability to self-teach rapidly and efficiently, a sound body of experience, etc… A first-year who graduates from Wassamattah U after being handwaved through courses is probably not going to be particularly higher than the baseline for the general population. But, by the same token, even a decent teacher who’s been teaching for several years will (generally) be a heck of a lot better at it than an armchair enthusiast.

As for regulation, I see no problem with basic standards. The hyperbolic nonsense we’ve seen (ZOMG! Making sure that I’m actually teaching my children properly is the first step on the slippery slope to fascism!) doesn’t help either. There’s nothing inherently wrong with some very basic monitoring of homeschool curriculum and results. There’s also nothing wrong with some very basic monitoring of public school curriculum and results.

176

Even without making accusations of dishonesty, I think it behooves advocates for a cause to flee from bad data. Sticking to it, and even doubling down (using it, as in this case, as evidence against propositions such as regulation that could bring in more reliable data) just corrupts your entire enterprise. Your only recourse in the face of criticism becomes recalcitrance, piling more and more on top of weak foundations. Bad for business, bad all around. I imagine it’s hard to bring yourself to take Diax’s Rake to your own movement, but the alternative is to relegate yourselves to a loony fringe. In the meantime, you have forfeited the duty to supply more data on which to make a rational decision.

Every few years, there is some move to try and regulate and measure the performance of public schools better, which educators squawk at in a way that doesn’t seem all that different from the way homeschoolers react to the same. Yet, I suspect both groups ask of the others, “Why should they be so afraid of scrutiny, if they’re doing what they’re supposed to do?”

And both groups have similar legitimate concerns that they may be judged by biased parties, made scapegoats, and even yoked to burdens whose only real function is to justify the regulator’s paychecks or a politician’s claims to having enacted reform.

177

Ah yes. There does seem to be a subtype of homeschoolers whose parents chose it to REALLY shelter their kids. And those types of kids and families seem to be everywhere.
There is resposible homeschooling that can be Christian in flavor. NOT bashing those folks.
But the homeschooling by parents who are batshit insane is just…nuts.
I think homeschooling can be a good choice…BUT it can also be used wrongly. Like the parents who are oversheltering their kids, aren’t even parenting. Parenting is about equipting your kids with the tools for independance. Those parents aren’t even doing that. They’re raising their kids to be afraid of gays as child molesters, or that rock and roll is teh devils music or all that stuff you read about in Chick tracts.

178

Like I said, it’s not an answer to “why”. Algher gives much better answers in the next post, even if I don’t agree with all his points

What’s “care” got to do with it?

Well, assuming only one kid, one parent - but why is that a benefit? I realise that class size is related to performance somewhat inversely proportionally at schools, but isn’t it assuming a bit much to assume it scales down like that all the way? Like was said, is there not a cooperative factor that gets left out?

Geared how? parental whim? Or are homescholed kids routinely taken for educational evaluation by outside specialists?

Judged by who? And what about challenging beyond their ability sometimes, as was siad?

No risk? Really? You want to be that definite, even in the case of say, a 4-kid family?
And isn’t the ability to *sometimes *fall asleep in class, to disappear in the crowd - these experiences, overall, are they not also to be valued for teaching something? Or are we educating robots?

So being educated at home vs in a dedicated facility is less distracting, you say?

You have data that connects amount of care with performance? That pegs the educator’s emotional investment with the learner’s response?

And is there not the risk of limiting the learner’s acquiring a healthy response to uncaring authority, such as they will face elsewhere, like say, university?

If Mr Brown teaches Geography to everyone’s kids in the network, and Mr Green teaches Maths, and Mr Grey teaches English, then that’s not homeschooling as I understand it, that’s an Alternative School System.

179

I have homeschooled kids in my family and I am considering it for my child.

I’ve read somewhere that the reason public schools typically rate so much lower than private schools as far as testing goes is that the private schools can eliminate low performers from their ranks and public schools are mandated to take everyone.

My child is currently enrolled in a public school, she is in a special program for speech delay.

My reasons for wanting to home school is so that I have a better idea of what is going on with my child, for what she is learning. As it is now, I get very, very, very little feedback about what she is learning about or even ways to reinforce what they are working on in school, and she is “special.” What kind of feedback will I receive once she’s in a regular program?

I don’t worry about socialization as I have found that schools are bastions of how not to behave. It is an artificial environment as I’ve ever seen. I’ve seen the lowest common denominator rule the class. I’ve seen the best stifled. I’ve also seen inspiration in its highest form.

Mostly, what I don’t see in public OR private schooling is autonomous thinking, the pursuit of true intellectual curiosity or the belief that being your own person is more important than being someone else.

As far as regulation goes, I know in Florida my nieces and nephews that are home schooled are required to take the FCAT tests annually and (I think) if they fail a second time, they can no longer be home schooled. For me the question is not can a child pass the FCAT, which, by the way, schools are now teaching for, but is the FCAT a true metric of what the child should be learning.

I tested way above my grade level from the time I started school. Typically in the 98% percentile. I was a good student, however, there were some compelling reasons that school was not the best “socialization” I could have experienced. I was rather unique in that I fought for my education. I had a guidance counselor suggest I take 5 classes of PE since I had met all my academic requirements. I asked if they minded if I learned something while I was there.

Whether it be public/private/home, the thirst for knowledge can and will conquer most obstacles. Our class salutatorian was a black male, living in the projects with a family of criminals. The question for parents really should be "how can I make sure that my child has a good enough experience learning that it is something they want to do for the rest of their life. And to my knowledge, no standardized test can test for that.

What a wonderful world it would be.

180

Speaking for myself - of course. There is still little chance of me being able to focus enough to retain information in a room full of people, as an adult. I have ADHD and some sensory processing issues - the slightest noise or conversation can break my concentration. As a kid, I wasn’t even trying to pay attention, and being one child out of 28, my teacher wasn’t able to keep me on task - ever.

To me it’s clear that individualized attention creates benefits in most social situations (medical care, education, parenting), and studies of all sorts seem to bear this out.

In the case of most home schoolers I know or have known, parents are not the sole educators of their children. Most kids take lessons in a muscial instrument and have an additional teacher/tutor or two for other subjects (often math - may come to their home or be outside the home). Many take classes at local schools, public or private, especially in high school - chemistry is something you can’t usually do at home. They are still very much home schooled.