Today's D & D rerun

I think some of them trying to- a huge, ancient 2 headed Black & White Dragon.

Yes, we have a “geeky” hobby.

But Glee is absolutely right. When a journalist of any stripe gets this sloppy, he should be called on it.

Cecil isn’t Dave Barry- he’s not a satirist by profession, but a journalist who uses sarcasm and other humorous turns of a phrase to educate. Usually.

But this article is not informative, does not answer the original question posted, and is really just an attack on the hobby based on only a cursory reading. He didn’t even ask for an “expert” opinion, as he has been known to do. And the update does nothing to improve it.

By way of comparison, check out this answer about pinball.

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_311.html

An admirable summary - thank you.

And, as your example report on ‘flipperless pinball’ shows, Cecil normally does his research thoroughly.
I really don’t know why he keeps reprinting the D+D column as a ‘Classic’. :confused:

Welcome to the boards!

Just before I borrow a sword from Farmer Giles of Ham (sneaky Tolkien reference :wink: ), could I ask what you mean by ‘arcane formulae’?

So far we have a list of one - THAC0.

For the benefit of non-roleplayers, this is:

If x = successful hit
a = player’s known chance to hit
b = opponents defence
c= any adjustments

then x = a - b + c

Hardly ‘arcane’, is it?
Got any others?

Recall that this column was written back when (as I understand) weekend-long gaming marathons were common and even in the popular media, there were rumors of death-cults and people running around sewers/steam tunnels and D&D was about as arcane as ever (not that subsequent editions helped much to the layman…, but between 10 of the finest 5th grade minds we could assemble, we had to ditch about 3/4 of the rules to make it comprehensible…).

If anyone’s interested, the original article is reprinted in the first SD collection.

It’s very simple, glee. You’re making this waaaayyyy too hard.

If your students’ parents ask about this or any article which claims D&D or other RPGs are a dangerous hobby run by child molesters, mass murderers, et al, then you say: “That article was written in America twenty years ago when the game first came out and nobody knew anything about it. Why don’t you stop by for a session and see for yourself? We’d love to have a visitor. We can even videotape a session if you can’t make it.”

Given your by-me-uncontested assertion that the best research involves sitting down and watching the game, this solution seems pretty obvious—talking to the parents isn’t enough. Give the parents an opportunity to sit in on the child’s educational progress. Keep them involved. Invite them to observe. If you’ve nothing to hide, demonstrate your confidence by being open about your material. If you make the offer, I suspect many parents will express interest in sitting in, but not many of them will actually show up to do so. They will feel more confidence because they see you are open to their participation.

If your institution doesn’t permit parent observation, arrange an extracurricular event at another location. Videotaping your sessions as a matter of habit might not be a bad idea, just as a way to dispel any possible later accusations, too, but that’s advice from an American who lives in a litigious society.

As for your other complaints, I still don’t see them.

Yes, the referee of the game is “vaguely Mansonesque.” In the manner of, or resembling, Charles Manson, the puppet master who controlled his flock of followers. I had to put the word vaguely back in because you have been going out of your way to ellide from “vaguely Mansonesque” to just “Mansonesque” to “he’s calling me a mass murderer.” Please look up the word “vague(ly)” and add “vague” to “in the manner of or resembling” and you’ll see how thin the comparison is meant to be.

Sheesh, an umpire is “vaguely Mansonesque”—he arbitrates between right and wrong, the players fear his decisions, he can throw any of them out of the game, his word is law—and I’m a fan of baseball. I can see the comparison being made, especially by someone like Cecil. An umpire is as vaguely Mansonesque as an elephant is vaguely lionesque (four feet, tail, warm-blooded, live-birth-bearing, lives in Africa, weighs more than a human).

Still having trouble finding the arcane formulae that litter the book? Try 2d8+1. d100/2 round up. Try 3-4/3-4/5-8 claw claw bite. +1/+3 vs undead. No, they’re not hard to us because we know what they mean. No, they’re not even all true formulae: one’s a listing for a three-attack monster that only is written like a division problem to the untrained eye. They fit the definition for arcane: known or understood only by a few. And mathematical modifiers appear everywhere on D&D items and merchandise; how and to what do you apply the modifier if not with “mathematical finagling?” I have played so many pen-n-paper RPGs that these formulae no longer phase me; I see them as patently obvious. You have to resolve an arcane formula every time you roll initiative!

(Before you say it, yes if Cecil had read the entire manual he’d understand them too. Yes he’d understand them if he’d got advice from a player or a GM. Read my previous posts: I already agreed that he didn’t get the whole picture and he set forth some pretty damned stupid formula in the belief that it gave a complete picture of the game, much the same way that Elvis impersonators are sometimes paraded forth by the heckling media to give a complete picture of Elvis fans, f’rinstance. Educational? Not very. Accurate? More or less, in its own limited way. Does it need to be updated? For the third time, yes.)

Is the D&D book sacred? Hardly: but surely you recall the admonition in the original hardbound DM’s guide that forbade players from peeling back the pages and looking within. I remember when my own brother Cervaise wouldn’t let me look in the DM’s guide because I might learn more about the game and lose some of the magic and mystery.

Apart from updating with new information, there is only one essential rule I think Cecil should quote from the original AD&D manuals, and that’s where the rulebook says all of these rules are optional. If you don’t like a rule or don’t need it or it makes the same slow or boring, don’t use it. Some gamers absolutely insist on having every mathematical advantage in their favor calculated down to the gnat’s ass; some don’t. Some just want to try to make up fast-n-loose rules to generate favorable events in the absence of rulebook dicta, yet somehow, somewhere, there is a chart or a die roll that can settle the question without excessive lawyering. Again, if your players don’t need that rule, don’t force it upon them: that’s what I’d add.

And there is only one essential change I’d make to Cecil’s column in regards to how successfully he answered his OW’s question: “You’re asking me for a list and summary for D&D and all D&D-like games, and all the rules therein? Hey, mushbrain, ever heard of a library? Ever think of calling a game company and asking for a catalog? Kids these days, I swear. Maybe you want I should do your homework, too?” Good grief, any answer to the D&D question that’s as exhaustive (and up-to-date) as the pinball answer would have to updated bimonthly and be sixty or seventy pages long! That’s not the job of a columnist in any publication except Dragon.

I can understand you’re upset that he’s impugned D&D, glee with his, um, opinion. After all, I play too. I still think you’re overreacting and taking this far too seriously.

Is that 2 c.p. in original D&D (2/50 of a gold piece), 2 c.p. in Basic/Expert D&D (2/100 of a gold piece), 2 c.p. in 1st Edition AD&D (2/200 of a gold piece), or 2 c.p. in 2nd Edition AD&D (2/100 of a gold piece)? :wink:

Of course, it’s not as simple as that. It’s more like:

If x = minimum number you need to roll on a 20-sided die to score a successful hit;
a = THAC0, the character’s known “base” minimum number he needs to roll on a 20-sided die to hit an opponent with an Armor Class of 0;
b = opponent’s Armor Class (the better your defense, the lower your Armor Class); and
c = to-hit adjustments for the “plus” of a magic weapon, Strength (if attacking with a melee weapon), and/or Dexterity (if attacking with a ranged weapon);

then x = a + b - c.

That’s good stuff - I would have to do that. But why should I have to undergo this uncomfortable conversation?
As you rightly recommend, I have had parents sit in on games (and even play a small role).
I have a handout ready which gives details of the game and how pupils have done interesting and amusing things in previous games.
I put a useful explanation on our School website, together with details of our victory in the UK National Schools Championship and our subsequent memorable trip to the World Roleplaying Championships in Milwaukee.
Meanwhile Cecil just keeps repeating this shoddy article every few years (I make it 3 times so far.)

Here is an alarming incident, where people did not stop to think:

‘Self-styled vigilantes attacked the home of a hospital paediatrician after apparently confusing her professional title with the word “paedophile”, it emerged yesterday…’

You think Charles Manson is best remembered for being a ‘puppet master’.
His group slaughtered at least 7 people. I say that’s what people associate with any reference to him, even ‘vaguely Mansonesque.’

And how many players have umpires murdered?!
Using your stretched definition, you’re human, so you’re ‘vaguely mansonesque’ too.
Seriously, try putting that on your resume. Tell your parents the same thing. See how easy it is to explain away.

But all that is just a notation used in the books to save space.
As you know, 2d8+1 means ‘roll two 8 sided dice, add them, then add 1 more’.
I appreciate that the wording may need an initial explanation, but to me an abtruse formula is a complicated mathematical procedure. And there aren’t any of those.

Well I agree with almost all that, but… ‘limited accuracy’?
Cecil gives little actual detail, but here’s one:
‘Players have to determine … their chance of contracting communicable diseases, or becoming infested by parasites.’
Wrong.

Oh come on. You might as well call detective stories are ‘sacred’, because you shouldn’t look at the last page to see who did it.
The problem with calling rules ‘sacred’ and players ‘acolytes’ is that it will bring the religious fundamentalists out in droves, calling D+D ‘satanic’ and demanding it be banned - as of course they did.

I agree completely.

Yes, of course Cecil is limited in space.
But he filled the space with insults.
Why not list a couple of games and their milieu (e.g. D+D - Tolkien), say what is supposed to be the point of the game and why it’s enjoyable, then finish with some harmless wisecracks…

As a professional school teacher of roleplaying, I have to take this propaganda way more seriously than you do. If this rubbish spreads, I could easily be suspended or lose my job.

Why, oh why, does this column need to be reprinted every few years?

And still, Fish,

Cecil did not answer the question asked.

<< Cecil did not answer the question asked. >>

Gimme a break. The question asked was: << What I would like know is the different types and rules of these games, and where I can learn more about them. >>

Cecil has a limited amount of column space. There’s no way on earth that he would be able to discuss the “different types” and “rules.” Aside from copyright issues on the rules, they all publish rule books, so the information is readily available “at many hobby and game stores” which is exactly what Cecil says.

Note, too that the question asked “about various games played in some colleges in the east.” They did NOT ask about a comparison of different role-playing games. Other games played in some colleges in the east back then might have included gold-fish swallowing, spin-the-bottle, and find-your-foot (a popular college game when smoking pot.)

So, Cecil answered the question as well as anyone can ask for a column with limited length. He picked the one game that was singled out in the letter, described it, and told where to find more information. If you thought he’d come up with an encyclopediac reference to all games being played at colleges, take a deep breath and get back to reality.

The question: “In the past few years I have heard different things about various games played in some colleges in the east. Dungeons & Dragons is one of them. What I would like know is the different types and rules of these games, and where I can learn more about them. --R.C.M., Skokie, Illinois”

Your defense of Cecil: “So, Cecil answered the question as well as anyone can ask for a column with limited length. He picked the one game that was singled out in the letter, described it, and told where to find more information. If you thought he’d come up with an encyclopediac reference to all games being played at colleges, take a deep breath and get back to reality.”

I didn’t ask for an encyclopaedic response, but for a column of limited length, it contains much more insult than info. If you compare his response about D&D to his one about pinball, you’ll see a glaring difference in the quality of the answer.
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_311.html

In the pinball answer, he acts like a responsible journalist. In covering D&D, Cecil comes off as dismissive, and uses a smattering of facts to make it look like he did his job.

As MrBoy1967 points out, the question specifically mentioned Dungeons + Dragons.

Nobody expects Cecil to go into details on the rules. However it is simple to briefly describe a few types of roleplaying games.
As for just saying ‘go to a store’ surely the StraightDope is about providing useful information so you can go into a store and ask pertinent questions.
Look, by contrast, at the excellent information Cecil provided on flipperless pinball machines (and in numerous other columns).
The D+D column contains little information on the game, most of which is in error (the game was jointly invented by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson; you can play with just one player; players do not have to determine their chance of disease; characters do not have to enter a dungeon).

  1. As MrBoy1967 points out, the question specifically mentioned Dungeons + Dragons.
  2. Cecil actually says in the column ‘I suppose you are referring to roleplaying games’.

Here are some quotes from the column:

‘I have some reservations about bestowing further publicity on this demented pastime, but a devotion to the noble principles of journalism demands that the facts be exposed, come what may.’

‘By means of a cunning stratagem (I asked somebody at the office), I managed to get my hands on a couple of those sacred rulebooks, and let me tell you buddy, this game is weird.
The basic idea in your run-of-the-mill Go Fish type game is to get all your opponent’s cards, or some other readily grasped commodity. Not so in D+D.’

’ The rule book is laden with such mystifying pronouncements as the following: "An ancient spell-using red dragon of huge size with 88 hit points has BXPV of 1300, XP/HP total of 1408, SAXPB of 2800 (armor class plus special defense plus high intelligence plus saving throw bonus due to hp/die), and an EAXPA of 2550 (major breath weapon plus spell use plus attack damage of 3-30/bite) totalling 7758hp.’

I won’t repeat all the insults Cecil made.
He’s printed the column 3 times in 23 years, not bothering to remove out-of date references.
In all that time, isn’t it obvious that he has never spoken to a single roleplayer, or even watched the game at all?

And you really think that Cecil ‘answered the question as well as anyone can ask for a column with limited length’?
And that he upheld the ‘noble principles of journalism’?
Or upheld the StraightDope motto ‘Fighting ignorance’?

Well, I threw a coupla links up on the EnWorld board to see if any of the folks over there are going to opine on the matter. Here’s a link to that thread:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1309559#post1309559

ttfn
guac.

Thanks, guac, for linking over at ENBoards; I’m Pielorinho there, and a cursory look will let you know exactly how much of a big old geek I am. (I’m currently giving people advice on how to run a political adventure rife with wererats, demons, cultists, and octopus-headed telepaths).

Glee, I think you’re taking this wayyy too seriously. The chances that someone will see this column and conclude that you’re a cultist are next to nil. If someone DOES make such a conclusion, you should be rolling your eyes, explaining the concept of “joke” to them, and not bringing up the murder of two children, since bringing up such a murder unsolicited would just be creepy.

Sure, Cecil is often dismissive of issues before studying them fully. Sometimes I agree with him, and sometimes I don’t. When he dismisses my geekery (or my uberlefty politics), I roll with it.

I’d love to see an update of the column, but I’m afraid he’ll quote bits of your posts in it, glee, making us roleplayers look even worse than they looked in the original article. Plenty of us have a healthy sense of humor about our hobby.

That said, kudos on teaching kids to play. If & when I become a teacher, I’d love to do the same thing; certainly teaching my 7-year-old triplet cousins how to play was one of my D&D highlights (even if one of them wanted to play Godzilla and another one wanted to play Jesus).

Daniel

“To play D&D you need at least two acolytes, who play under the guidance of a vaguely Mansonesque personage called the Dungeon Master (DM).”

I’m 90% certain that when I originally read this column (and was as miffed as some of you, though amused by the closing line!) this read

“a vaguely Masonesque personage”

Which makes a great deal more sense, likening the DM to the Masons, rather than Mr. Manson.

Uh oh … the third reply in that thread says:

“I think it wise not to level too much ire at Cecil since he’s not even a real person.”

Sacrilege! Feed him to the spoo!