Today's ethical dilemma brought to by Mt. Everest and a man with no legs.

In My Humble Opinion
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The best climber on the Everest team that discovered the remains of Mallory–we’re talking uber-climber Conrad Anker–expressed skepticism that Mallory or Irvine reached the summit. Anker said the most likely obstacle was the North Route’s famed Second Step. Today this 60-foot vertical wall is scaled by way of a bolted-in ladder. Back then, he said, it would have required free climbing skills that neither man possessed–and at high altitude. The only chance he thought possible is if super heavy snows basically created a ramp, so that the men could walk over the SS. Recovered evidence suggests the two men fell to their deaths. Their were no rocks from the summit in Mallory’s possession.

Incidentally, when Sir Edmund reached the summit nearly 30 years later, he peered down the north side and pronounced it unclimable. Today, it’s climbed by scores of people every year.

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Wow, Carnac, Ed Viesturs?! That’s seriously cool.

Broomstick, Telemark, Waenara, Carnac, Omniscient: well said.

Too few people in here really understand the conditions on Everest (or indeed, on any tall mountain). They don’t call it the “Death Zone” because it needed a snappy sounding name.

Were the climbers that passed Sharp uncaring? Absolutely not. Of course they cared. But there was nothing they could do for him - nothing. And if they stopped, they’d die too.

Does mountain climbing take a different mindset? Sure it does. Is it hard to understand the drive and motivation of mountain climbers in the face of all the risks? Sure it is. But it can be hard to understand anyone’s passion if you don’t share it. For example, I don’t really understand motorcycles. I can see the attraction, sure, but I’m simply not interested in ever riding a bike - the risks are too great for me, even though I understand that it’s largely very safe. That’s me. Other people don’t understand, oh, cliff jumping or SCUBA diving or flying planes or skydiving or surfing or any number of other recreational activities. People have died doing all of these activities, yet all are mostly very safe, with their practicioners going to great lengths to increase safety and reduce risk. Mountain climbers are the very same.

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Well, many people in this thread have expressed incredulity that they couldn’t carry Sharp lower down the mountain. Even though others have said this isn’t feasable, they still aren’t believed.

Well, in the latest death that I linked to in my last post (Hall), they were a couple hundred metres from the top (descending) when he collapsed. Several sherpas tried to carry him down for nine hours, and were only able to move him one hundred metres. He died several hundred metres from the summit.

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About Dawa - he, along with all the other Sherpas that live on the Tibetan plateau, share an advantage most European/Western climbers don’t have. They’re already highly adapted for altitude as they live at some of the highest altitudes permanently inhabited by people. Just as the Inuit are highly adapted for living in arctic conditions, Sherpas are adapted for altitude. There’s a reason so many are employed on Everest.

I’m not saying it’s not risky for Dawa to linger for such long periods with Sharp - it is. I’m saying it’s slightly less risky for him, and that his conditioning and experience means that he’ll probably be able to stay a little longer than a Western climber before declining.

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First of all, Dawa (and most of the Sherpas) do possess superhuman strength. They are physiologially better suited to operate at high altitude than Westerners, except for a few freaks of nature like Boukerrv and Vesteurs.

This guy wasn’t going to survive unless he was moving on his own. A Sherpa spent an hour trying to revive him with oxygen, pretty much the only thing that was going to work. He tried everything that could be done and it didn’t work. Sitting around for a hour up there puts your own life in danger, that’s how many people have died, trying to save others. Once that failed, what did you expect the others to do?

Dawa and other Sherpas have a history of putting themselves at risk for the safety of their clients and of strangers on the mountain. It’s amazing how most Western teams rely on them for rescue and safety, as they are often the only ones who can operate up there with any sense of regularity. Other climbers could have tried the same thing that Dawa did, but at greater risk to themselves. He’d already done what could be expected. When Sharp didn’t respond at that point, he was essentially dead. At least that’s my interpretation.

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There’s a big difference between 3/4 of the way up and above 26,000. But you are correct, there are some tasks that can be done at altitude. And there are dozens of documented cases where people can’t put on gloves, can’t operate an oxygen mask, can’t clip into a rope, can’t put on their goggles, can’t run a stove, can’t zip their zippers. Once you start the summit push things go very differently.

This wasn’t a team of 40 people. This was 40 people on different teams with little communication or organization, all headed for the same place. You’ve heard of the “fog of war”? This is a very similar scenerio.

As said earlier, this wasn’t a team of 40. Sharp was on his own by his own choice. The other, smaller teams, built in extra people and contingency plans, but that mainly involves getting turned around before it’s too late. Once you push on beyond your limits, the chance of any rescue is extremely remote.

True, but high altitude mountaineering really isn’t very logical.

Was there even a Gamok bag up there? Since Sharp wasn’t anywhere near Camp IV and there was no way of getting him there, I don’t think it’s really an issue.

THERE IS NO PLAN B UP THERE. I don’t know how to emphasize this enough. There is nothing humanly possible you can do to rescue someone who is immobile at 28,500’ on that ridge. It has nothing to do with Nepal being poor since the Western expeditions provide all the gear. People take these risks of their own free will, complete in the knowledge that they stand a very large chance of dying up there.

And I agree that Mallory/Irving most likely didn’t make it to the top. Where their bodies were found pretty much rules it out.

Hillary hates what has happened at Everest, and has made no bones about it. He thinks that the climbing expeditions of today are crass commercial ventures without the sense of honor and exploration that he had. And he’s right. But it is what it is, and wishing that things were otherwise does no good. Based on what those climbers had, and what condition Sharp was in, I don’t see what else they could have done. I’d never put myself in that situation, but Sharp and the other climbers did so willingly.

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I think part of the disconnect here, is with the “It can’t be done!” statements. When an armchair like me comes along and see Dawa do it for an hour or Weathers wake from the dead or even this latest when the Sherpas DID carry someone, regardless of the distance or the final outcome. So it can be done, it may not be the right thing to do and that’s a different thing.

Believe me I get that it’s dangerous. I get that it’s damn near impossible. I don’t make light of the difficulty trying to drag a prone man down a mountain and if it can’t be done, then it can’t be done.

What I can’t get my head around, is that Sharp was there for two days and people walked passed him, all save one. If the Sherpa could try for a hour, then surely a Westerner could stay with the guy for 15 minutes; before the Sherpa did and before Sharp reached such a critical state or was Sharp doomed?

Maybe I don’t understand the timeline, but people witnessed Sharp from walking and working with his gear, to being confused, to being prone at what point was he doomed?

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I wonder how long it’ll be before someone stands naked on top of Everest?

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Are you setting something up or merely prohpetic? :slight_smile: story just came out.

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This article about Everest rescues, and a few others on the same site, are very insightful.

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Gaudere - :smiley:

In other news, a 12 strong team of Sherpas is making a rescue attempt of an Australian climber given up for dead.
Makes you wonder why the same effort wasn’t used for Sharp, donnit?

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It appears the sherpa who stayed with Sharp for an hour - an experienced local - didn’t seem to think that his own life would be in danger trying to help the fellow. If helping Sharp were really that impossible why does anyone suppose Hillary has taken this position? Are we claiming he doesn’t know what he’s talking about? If this is the simple technical question of impossibility that some are making it out to be then this Hillary guy must be senile or a rank amateur, or…?

Again I have to see I don’t see the point in doing the climb with either large or small teams if the moment anyone becomes debilitated they’re dead. I checked out the website of one Everest trek operator and they require the people who go with them to have CPR and other emergency medical aid training. One wonders why this would be if we’re talking about prolonging the lives of people you have no intention of moving.

“There is no Plan B” because having a Plan B - which might include paying for extensive training and equipment and pay for nearby (sherpa presumably) rescue teams which could handle getting someone to evacuatable altitude for these situations would make the climb prohibitively expensive. It is a business after all.

I’m still not sure why Sharp is being taken to task for climbing alone (aside from not being properly equipped) if it’s true that no one else can help you if you get into trouble. There’s a logical sticking point there I need explained.

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Lincoln Hall has been rescued.

The latest info shows the Sherpas brought him down to a make shift hospital.
Wonder why the effort was made for Hall? He’s one of the more famous climbers I suspect.

Not sure if Hall and Sharp were remotely in the same areas or not. Or how technical each save would be compared to the other.

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Well, it’s clear to me (at least) from the many links that the Sherpas consistently show the best judgment and most integrity. I understand all about the impaired judgment of hypoxia, but I also question the bias of decisions made by commercial expeditions. I just have to wonder if they don’t think about their own enterprise before giving direction to those approaching the summit.

In the end, I can empathize with a lot of extreme activities, but one where your very judgment becomes impaired for prolonged periods is not one of them. It makes about as much sense as scuba diving after drinking a fifth of tequila.

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There is no way to make travel up there safe. There’s no real way to have a rescue team anywhere near there. People can only stay at altitude for brief periods of time, it’s just very dangerous up there.

And people climb Everest not despite it being risky, but because it is. As someone who climbs and hangs around lots of climbers, no one would want it to be a place where you can call in a rescue at all times. It would devalue the experience for most, perverse as that sounds.

The teams, Sherpas, and clear-thinking leaders turn you around before you get in serious trouble. They are there when some extra oxygen turns can prevent you from collapsing or revive you immediately after. One clearheaded individual can prod and push someone down when they can’t do it themselves. But wait too long and you can’t do that. The key up there is to keep moving and turn around before things get too bad.

Also, getting Sherpas, supplies, tents, fixed ropes, etc up there takes money that all these other groups paid and planned for. It’s harsh that this is the case, and it wasn’t the case in Sir Edmands time. This is the part that I have the hardest time dealing with, since you are essentially putting a price on someone’s life.

I don’t want it to sound like I’m defending all the actions of everyone up there. I think the whole zoo that Everest has become makes things like this inevitable, but that’s what has happened. Climbers (often foolish and deluded) go into this with their eyes open. I’m sure more could have been done for Sharp before he got that bad, but the guy was determined to summit and that seems to be the proximate cause. After that happened, I’m not sure what the options were.

And having never have been up that high I can’t say with any certainty what is possible and what isn’t. I’ve been to 18,000 and I know that I wasn’t thinking all too clearly at times, and I would have been much less effective if called upon for a rescue. I can’t imaging what it’s like at 28,500.

The rescue of Lincoln Hall, by all the teams on the north side of the mounatin, is nothing short of amazing. He managed to revive and contribute to his own rescue, which I’m sure improved the chances of success. It does make you question if a rescue of Sharp was possible (although it also appears that Sharp was in much worse shape). I’m not sure about the terrain enough to know what the route is like on that side. But all those Sherpas who performed the rescue (and it appears to have been all Sherpas) knowingly put their lives at risk to do this, and did it willingly. What they did is awesome in all respects.

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According to this article Hall’s two sherpas gave him up for dead, but another one who was part of another expedition found him, gave him hot tea, contacted Hall’s expedition, and then left to continue on to the summit with his client.

Good news that he was rescued finally.

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This is exactly the point I was trying to make. I definitely understand that Sherpas are far more well-suited to the enviroment than Westerners, but the problem I’m having with the whole thing is that 40 different people passed this man by even when he was apparently still up, disoriented, and walking around, and no one else did a thing to help him. I also understand the fact that he was essentially a dead man walking at that point, but he was certainly still suffering and, I’d imagine, fully aware of his situation before he became completely disoriented.

The Sherpa had to descend after helping him because he’d used up the oxygen he would have used to make it to the summit. I just can’t help wondering if the situation might have been different if this had happened further down the mountain instead of on that final leg up to the summit. Meaning, would more people have stopped and tried to help if it wasn’t going to interfere with their chances to reach the summit?

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To be fair, we’ve heard both that you cannot stop on the mountain because you’ll die and that a Sherpa stopped with Sharp for an hour. We’ve also heard both that you cannot rescue people from Everest and that a different climber was rescued by a team of 12 Sherpas. Can you really blame anyone for being confused about what to believe? I’m confused.
Anyway, that’s my only comment until I can read some of these links people have posted. Thanks to all who have been helping with more information.

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I don’t think this is an accurate representation of what happened. The timeline is a bit unclear, but I think he was summitting late in the day, most everyone one else was on their way down while he was still going up. After he summitted and started down is when he collapsed. So he spent the night out before anyone saw him is such a bad state.

By the next day, when the majority of people passed him he wasn’t walking around, but half frozen into the ice, with lots of exposed skin and incoherent. Groups going up did stop an attempt to help but he was too far gone to help. That’s when Dawa spent an hour with him trying to get him to breathe his bottled O2, but that effort failed and Dawa returned to camp.

In short, I don’t think he was every disoriented and walking about when others were nearby, except while he was pushing for the summit. If he was climbing with a team, one would hope that a team member would have turned him around at that point. That’s the real benefit of climbing in a group.

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And frankly, it’s a confusing topic. I’m confused a lot of the time about this too.

Most people can’t stop up there, especially Westerners. There are a few exceptions, and there are degrees, but in general, you don’t dawdle in the Death Zone. Dawa spent an hour with the dying Sharp and did what he could. He’s essentially a locomotive where the rest of the climbers are go carts. But even he had to abandon his efforts after an hour since he had used up his O2 in the effort. Anatoli Boukreev was another one of those locomotives, a genetic freak of nature who was able to do what others simply couldn’t. And each time they perform up there they are rolling the dice.

The rescue on the north side is amazing and pretty much unprecendented. I’m not sure yet what those 12 Sherpas had to do, but no matter what it was incredible. The fact that Lincoln Hall revived when given tea and O2 probably was the big difference, but even if he hadn’t they were prepared to attempt a litter carry. I can’t imagine how guelling that would have been, but it sounds like they got him down far enough that he could walk out himself. Why he reacted differently than Sharp, I can’t say.

The point is that these Sherpas and other climbers who attempt these rescues are putting themselves at risk for others. It’s a noble and honorable task, and I applaud them for doing heroic feats that I couldn’t possible imagine. But I also don’t feel capable of condemning others who didn’t attempt those rescues when being told by their team leaders and Sherpas that there was nothing to be done. It would be great if this incident helps in some way to tone down the zoo atmosphere on Everest, but based on the results of “Into Thin Air” I strongly doubt it. It just makes it more attractive to the people who will repeat this tragedy.