I don’t know. I don’t at the moment have access to the Etymologies, though it may be as yet untranslatable without extending the language. Further, it would depend whether you want the literal or figurative translation.
Really, even “it’s as yet untranslatable” is a factual answer to a factual question.
Does it count if some friends of mine used to pass notes in class written entirely in Elvish runes, on the theory that if the notes were confiscated, at least they couldn’t be read aloud to the class?
(Just for kicks, here is possibly the geekiest article I’ve ever seen, from my alumni newsletter. Check out p. 16. Warning: .pdf file.)
www.indiana.edu/~reeiweb/newsletter/current/2002/october2002.pdf
You’re missing the point. I can ask a billion “factual” questions about other Novels or Movies. That doesn’t mean they should go in GQ. They go here in Cafe Society.
GQ is for non-author, non-actor, non-story, non-movie, non-artistic, factual questions.
Now if you want to argue that the language was created BEFORE the fictional story, and therefore should get to stay in General Questions, then go for it. But that argument belongs in the Pit. And I’m pretty sure bibliophage didn’t know the language was created before it was used in non-fiction novels.
Well, I tend to roll with things rather than brawl, so I’d rather it not end up in the Pit. This is why when the thread moved to CS I tried jumpstarting a philosophical discussion of what defines a “fictional” language. Ultimately, I’ll admit that Quenya and Sindarin probably do count, but why is a subtle point and (I think) one worth hashing out. If the construction of language is regarded as a part of literature, then questions on the philosophy of linguistics are fair game for CS, no?
That said, there’s nothing to debate that Tolkien’s conlanging predated even the earliest of his Lost Tales. He himself was quoted as saying that the novels were more a place to use the languages than the languages created to fit into the novels.
I’ve had the hobby for several years now. That is to say I create my own fictional languages as well. There’s quite an online community of conlangers (contraction of constructed-language) and there a few points I’d like to throw out for you all. Not that I disagree with anyone, just wanted to share some common opinions.
It is the theory of many linguists that no language can be functional with a dictionary / lexicon of less than 2000 words. Below that and you’ll hit serious road blocks unless you’re going for a tribal bare-minimum language.
As for many of us, we never regard a language as complete. A language is never set in stone until it dies. Latin is an example of a largely unchanging language, unless you go philosophical and note that it continues to change as we discover new historical texts which contain new words (rare but it does happen).
We define any language created from its grass roots as fictional, constructed. For any language currently spoken by a large population, learned as a first language and recognized as a cultural language, we define as a Natural language.
I don’t recall a specific discussion about a conlang crossing into the realm of a natlang but going by our common definition then if Quenya or some other language were to reach that level, then I expect it would cross the boundary, as was mentioned with Norway.
Just my 2 cents.
Having graduated with a degree in linguistics, I should be able to say something about this.
A good starting point for defining a “real” language is one that is spoken or has been spoken by a group of people including their children. I think this can be a little too simple, but it is a good place to start.
Another point is that, as far as we know, languages such as Latin or English were not simply created whole cloth by an individual, nor were they created from pieces of other languages by an individual. Esperanto and the languages of Tolkien were. In that sense they had their birth as “created languages”, whereas Latin and English were “spawned”. In other words, there origin does not seem to go back to creation by an individual or even a conscious attempt to produce a new language.
But lets go back to the earlier point about “real” languages being spoken by a group of people and their children. By this definition Esperanto now qualifies as a “real” language. Apparently Klingon too, if that newspaper article is correct. However, one aspect of a truly “living” language is that it can sustain itself through transmission from one generation too the next. In the case of Klingon and even Esperanto (I believe) the transmission from one generation to the next is not very stable given that those languages are usually spoken by the parents as a second language. Transmission is also problematic because Esperanto and Klingon speakers tend to live in small linguistically isolated groups.
I don’t know enough about people speaking Tolkien’s languages to say much about it, but I imagine the situation is similar to Klingon.
I should also note that some people don’t consider certain languages “languages” that might fit the criterion given above for a real language. Languages like Papiamentu mentioned in an earlier post, or African American Vernacular English (also known as Ebonics). Another example might be Swiss-German, which differs considerably from Standard German and is almost never written down. In these cases the main reason they are not considered languages is that there is a Standard variety of language that these languages differ from and so they are not considered “real”.
The pit is not just the place for brawls. It’s the place to discuss or object to a Moderator’s decision.
I don’t think anyone would try to debate that. But I think it’s trivia. As smart as all the Dopers our, I bet the majority of us did not know that. This includes the moderator who moved the thread.
The thread title “Tolkien Language geeks: Rohirrim” suggests we’re discussing a language used by a Sci-Fi/Fantasy writer in his novels. That has Cafe Society written all over it.
It doesn’t matter either way to me.
I just wanted to point out that it’s pretty obvious (even if the obvious happens to be inaccurate) that this language is a made-up fantasy language. One used in fantasy stories. So it was moved. Klingon questions would also have been moved.
/hijack