Tom Brady: If NE win the Super Bowl, is he the best ever?

The Game Room
41

[QUOTE=Enginerd]
Favre makes a lot of bad decisions and tries to force balls that he shouldn’t. He’s a great QB, but there’s no way that style would fly with the Patriots. Brady threw 8 interceptions this season. The last time Favre finished the year with fewer than 13 picks was his rookie season, when he had just 4 atempts (and 2 picks). Put him on the Pats this year and they’d have twice as many turnovers and probably 3 losses… put him on any of the Pats other Super Bowl teams and I don’t think they’d make it past the AFC championship.

Marino and Elway are funny. They both played most of their careers for mediocre teams - Marino never made it back to the Super Bowl after his second year, and Elway couldn’t win the game until he could ride Terrel Davis and a top-10 defense all the way. Brady’s been surrounded by the same kind of offensive talent that Marino and Elway had, and he won 3 super bowls with it. His defense has been good, but not elite. In their 3 Super Bowl victories (2001, '03, '04), the Pats defense was ranked 24th, 7th, and 9th, respectively (the Broncos defenses were 5th and 11th in their two wins). The Pats defenses (aside from 2001) have been good, but they haven’t been the kind of squad that can carry a mediocre QB all the way. With somebody who was less composed under center, the Pats would probably still be a perennial playoff team, but nobody would be talking dynasty.

To me, watching Brady calmly pick apart a defense is far more impressive than watching Manning flapping his arms around or seeing Favre throw the ball up for grabs off his back foot. He doesn’t throw snowballs at his teammates or run down the field jumping up in the air… all he does is win game after game after game. He’s the best quarterback - and on a short list of the best players - I’ve ever seen.
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Of course, that begs the question of whether the defensive stats hold water, which IMHO they do not. The overall D stats are based only on gross yards allowed, which is nice but is only a piece of the puzzle. Rushing defense ought to be measured by yards per play, and passing defense ought to be the measured by the QB rating system, but that’s just IMHO.

42

Here’s something else that I think is underappreciated about Brady – his rapport with his teammates, and especially African-American teammates. It’s not much talked about, but whenever they show the sidelines in the NFL, white players seem to be be sitting and talking with white players, and black players seem to be sitting and talking with black players. In a world where quarterbacks are more likely to be white, and receivers are more likely to be black, the ability to build rapport across the color line seems to be crucial. Brady seems to me to be better at that than most.

Now, mind you, I’m just judging by what I see on the sidelines, looking at the interactions between Brady and his teammates. But I’ve seen it often enough to be struck by it. Just don’t ask me for a cite.

43

Well, with only 13 teams in the 50s, it was easier for Graham to get to the championship game. But 10 times in a row, winning 7, is pretty impressive. And the three MVPs. But, as a kid growing up in the bay area in the 80s, I have to go with Montana, closely followed by Young. If Joe had retired in 85 with the bad back, he’d still be a HOFer, or close to it, but Young would’ve had four more full seasons, and likely would be the consensus GOAT.

44

[QUOTE=blondebear]
One thing I’ve noticed about Brady (and, in turn, the team in general), is that he rarely appears to be desperate. You seldom see him running around in the pocket, trying to make some kind of Doug Flutie “Hail Mary” miracle play. Along with other great QBs, I get the sense that Tom has the whole thing under control.
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I actually think there’s some truth in that. Not in any kind of indefinable ‘leadership’ way, but just in his technical ability to avoid the rush while also staying focused downfield. In my not very expert opinion, there is nobody better at simultaneously seeing receivers and coverage, and knowing where the pass rushers are and exactly the minimum amount he has to move to avoid them. He certainly doesn’t have the improvisational ability of Elway, Farve or Montana, is only average NFL-level for throwing ability, and is probably the inferior of Peyton and others for reading defenses. But I think he has the ability to make his O-line look much better, and he doesn’t make many mental errors under pressure.

This may seem boring, but it does help a lot for winning games. And is a perfect match for Belichek’s style. Could Brady have won Superbowl’s with Elway’s teams? Maybe not. But I’m not sure Elway would have had as much success with Brady’s teams either. And I bet Brady could have won with Montana’s teams.

45

[QUOTE=An Arky]
I won’t be convinced unless he puts up HOF-type numbers on a non-Belichick, non-playoff team.
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With all due respect, this makes absolutely no sense. So in order to be a top flight quarterback, he has to play on a bad team? Hypothetically, if he’s the best quarterback ever, he’ll keep his teams in playoff contention on his own merits. Frankly, all this stuff about how Brady has good players around him and a good coach, and therefore can’t be considered really great, is ridiculous.

Joe Montana threw to the best wide receiver who has ever played. His second WR was first Dwight Clark and then John Taylor, both of whom were at least as good as Willie Welker, and his tight end (mostly Brent Jones) was a much more dangerous downfield receiver than Ben Watson. Montana’s halfback was one of the great under-rated multipurpose backs who ever played, and certainly a better player than any running back Brady has had so far. His fullback was (with Moose Johnston) one of the guys who changed public perception of the fullback position; he was a dangerous receiver and as good a run blocker as most offensive lineman. And Montana played for most of his career behind an offensive line that was good, athletic, and mean - guys like Bubba Paris, Guy McIntyre, and Randy Cross. And where Brady’s coach is of course brilliant but is primarily known for defensive acumen, Montana’s coach for the bulk of his career was the guy who invented modern offensive football.

Terry Bradshaw played with three Hall of Fame offensive skill position players (Swann, Stallworth, Harris), behind an excellent offensive line, and with a defensive routinely mentioned among the best there ever was. His coach was Chuck Noll.

Johnny Unitas was throwing for most of his career to Ray Berry and John Mackey. His offensive line included Jim Parker, who a couple of people will tell you was the greatest offensive lineman ever. His coaches were Weeb Ewbank and Don Shula.

Those three guys are most commonly mentioned as “the greatest ever.” All three had coaches just as good as Belichek (and certainly Walsh was more of an asset to a quarterback than Belichek is). And all three actually had far more offensive talent at their disposal than Brady has now (this was certainly the case before this year, but I’d say it’s pretty clearly the case even now. Matt Light is a good football player, but he’s not Jim Parker. Ben Watson is a good football player, but he’s not John Mackey. And Randy Moss is a tremendous weapon, but he’s not Jerry Fucking Rice).

Thing is - Brady’s really, really good. It’s not the weapons; it’s him. In the Jags game this week, there was a play where the Jaguars coverage was just brilliant. Every receiver was covered, and well. Ben Watson ran a pattern into the endzone; feinted toward the sideline, then turned back toward midfield. The defensive back barely bought the feint at all; he turned with Watson. Because Watson knew he’d be cutting back and his defender did not, Watson had an head start of maybe one half of one second. But that’s all that was needed, because Brady had anticipated the break and put the ball on a rope. Watson turned around and the ball was in his hands. There aren’t ten quarterbacks in football who could have made that throw, just physically; there aren’t five who would have, given the circumstances involved. And there aren’t any who can and do make three or four similarly perfect throws, without mistakes, in every game.

By the way - if your idea of entertaining football viewing does not include a pass like the one I described above, I don’t understand you one bit.

46

What if Favre wins the Super Bowl?

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I’d say that Brady is a bit like Larry Bird…he makes it look so simple.
and if he doesn´t have that many super-comebacks, maybe it’s because he’s already winning.
Let’s remember that his first SB was after taking over for Bledsoe with a less-than-impressive team. He never had Aikamn’s Cowboys (Irvin, Smith, Johnson, Novacek and a kickass defense)

48

[QUOTE=zamboniracer]
Of course, that begs the question of whether the defensive stats hold water, which IMHO they do not. The overall D stats are based only on gross yards allowed, which is nice but is only a piece of the puzzle. Rushing defense ought to be measured by yards per play, and passing defense ought to be the measured by the QB rating system, but that’s just IMHO.
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I don’t have the “passer rating against” stats, but in 2001 the Pats were 21st in the league in “average yards per rush allowed.”

I agree wholeheartedly with everything Diogenes and storyteller said. Some of you are crazy with the justifications. “No signature 4th and 14 plays”? Really? You have to stink up the joint on the first three downs in order to qualify for greatest ever?

And as for memorable signature plays, how about his first down completion he threw while actually sitting on his ass on the ground?

You can’t point to his sack numbers and claim that means his OL is great. Sacks are at very least equally the QBs responsibility. Look at the 2004 Giants, where Kurt Warner let up 6 sacks a game for three games in a row, leading to his benching. Eli the rookie comes in and starts against the best defenses in the league and lets up 2 sacks a game from the get-go. What happened to make the OL all-of-a-sudden so much better? Obviously nothing; the dramatic reduction in sacks was attributable to the QB, not the OL.

Note that most (if not all) of Elway’s and Favre’s signature moments came in seasons where they came up short in the playoffs. At least Montana’s signature moments contributed to winning Lombardi trophies.

As for Favre, nobody who holds the NFL record for most career interceptions belongs anywhere near the GOAT conversation.

Personally, I think at this point that Brady is clearly the GOAT. Any justification employed to diminish his numbers can also be directed at Peyton Manning. (Has great weapons around him and a great OL.) And when he didn’t have the offensive weapons, great OL or shutdown defense? He just won Superbowls. And this in the age of parity and 31 opponents.

When it comes to “fun to watch”, I find Brady more fun to watch than any QB I have ever seen. You talk about how much time he has in the pocket, but this is a relatively new development. Duing his Superbowl years there was tons of pressure on him, but his pocket presence is preternatural. The way he glides in the pocket and senses pressure is on a whole other level than any other QB I’ve seen. And unlike somebody like Peyton’s choppy and frenetic pocket motion, Brady is smooth as butter when he does it.

I can’t fathom a legitimate argument against.

49

[QUOTE=Gangster Octopus]
What if Favre wins the Super Bowl?
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If Favre wins the Super Bowl this year, he’ll have almost as many NFL championships in sixteen seasons (as a starter) as Brady has in seven.

He’s a great QB, sure. Hall of Famer, absolutely. First ballot, even. And he looks like a big kid out on the field, throwing snowballs and joking with everybody from the officials to Michael Strahan. He’s the big brother that everybody’s always wanted. But he doesn’t belong in the “best QB of all time” discussion.

50

[QUOTE=Enginerd]
If Favre wins the Super Bowl this year, he’ll have almost as many NFL championships in sixteen seasons (as a starter) as Brady has in seven.

He’s a great QB, sure. Hall of Famer, absolutely. First ballot, even. And he looks like a big kid out on the field, throwing snowballs and joking with everybody from the officials to Michael Strahan. He’s the big brother that everybody’s always wanted. But he doesn’t belong in the “best QB of all time” discussion.
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So if he wins the SB, the guy who has two Super Bowl victories, another SB appearance, three MVP awards, every passing record in the book and a durability record unequaled for QBs does not belong in the “best QB of all time” discussion. Not saying he is, but c’mon, he is in the discussion.

51

All this “he’s on a good team” stuff is stupid. QBs are known as good, because they make their teams good. There aren’t great QBs who played on bad teams, almost as a tautology.

Anyway, “best ever” is somewhat nebulous. Stats, wins, playoffs, pressure?

You give me the option of having any QB who ever played the game as my Superbowl QB, and I pick Tom Brady. Maybe Montana.

You give me the option of any QB ever on my fantasy team, Marino or Manning.

You give me the option of any QB ever when I need to convert a 4th & 20 to get into field goal range. . .maybe Favre.

Any QB to just have on my team for a regular football season. . …to put together wins and give me a chance of going deep into the playoffs. . .Brady.

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[QUOTE=Trunk]
All this “he’s on a good team” stuff is stupid. QBs are known as good, because they make their teams good. There aren’t great QBs who played on bad teams, almost as a tautology.

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Wrong. Great QBs with no blocking have no chance to succeed. Consider Jim Plunkett who was a bum for the Patriots but a two time SB champ/HOF hero for the Raiders. The difference: good blockers and good receivers played for the Raiders but not for the Pats.

53

[QUOTE=Omniscient]

I think he’s great, but he tends to avoid do-or-die situations. Credit him and Belichick for that, and maybe that’s a better indication of his greatness than anything. But in the emotional question of GOAT, it probably hurts him.
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According to Wikipedia , he is 7-0 in overtime games, 30-5 in games decided by 3 points or less, and has 28 game-winning drives after a Patriots’ fourth-quarter tie or deficit. To me, those numbers say that he’s absolutely clutch in do-or-die situations. Maybe he makes it look too easy for you? How does he avoid do-or-die anyway, by playing too perfectly early in the games?

[QUOTE=Omniscient]
In the irony of ironies the fact that his 3 Super Bowls were all close games is probably a fair argument against him too.
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Maybe this is what you meant by “irony,” but doesn’t this statement contradict your statement above? You should probably pick one and go with it.

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[QUOTE=ShadowFacts]
According to Wikipedia , he is 7-0 in overtime games, 30-5 in games decided by 3 points or less, and has 28 game-winning drives after a Patriots’ fourth-quarter tie or deficit. To me, those numbers say that he’s absolutely clutch in do-or-die situations. Maybe he makes it look too easy for you? How does he avoid do-or-die anyway, by playing too perfectly early in the games?

Maybe this is what you meant by “irony,” but doesn’t this statement contradict your statement above? You should probably pick one and go with it.
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Yup, I am admitting to a contradiction. I’m actually playing Devil’s advocate.

You could make a decent case that Aikman’s Super Bowl blowouts are a more impressive feat than Brady’s 3 close Super Bowl wins. You could also make the case that Elway’s “The Drive” and “The Drive II” were singular moments that place him a step ahead Brady’s similar performances. It’s not for me to say that either criteria is more valid than the other.

I still say that if I were starting an expansion team and had to draft a QB from history to anchor my franchise, I’m taking Elway. Not all statistics would back this up, but it’s just my subjective opinion from watching just about every great game from a QB from about 1983 onward.

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[QUOTE=Omniscient]
I still say that if I were starting an expansion team and had to draft a QB from history to anchor my franchise, I’m taking Elway. Not all statistics would back this up, but it’s just my subjective opinion from watching just about every great game from a QB from about 1983 onward.
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And 13 short years later you’ll get your first Lombardi trophy.

I’ll take Brady and win it in one.[ul][li]Brady enters 2007 with a record of 82-26 (.759) in regular-season and playoff games. It is the best record of any NFL quarterback in the Super Bowl Era (since 1966) with at least 40 starts. [/li][li]Brady enters 2007 with a 12-2 (.857) playoff record, the second best in NFL history behind Bart Starr (9-1, .900). [/li][li]Brady is the only quarterback in NFL history to start and win three Super Bowls before his 28th birthday, having quarterbacked the Patriots to victories in Super Bowl XXXVI when he was 24 years old, Super Bowl XXXVIII (26) and Super Bowl XXXIX (27). [/li][li]Brady enters 2007 with a 26-5 record in games where the final margin was less than a touchdown, including a 6-1 playoff record and a 3-0 Super Bowl record in such games. [/li][li]Brady enters the 2007 season having started 108 consecutive regular-season and playoff games for the Patriots, good for the third-longest streak among active NFL quarterbacks (trailing only Brett Favre and Peyton Manning). [/li][li]Brady enters 2007 as the NFL’s all-time leader in overtime wins without a defeat, recording a perfect 7-0 mark in overtime in his career.[/li][li]Brady has orchestrated 24 game-winning drives to break a tie or take the lead in the fourth quarter or overtime. Six of his game-winning efforts have come in the postseason, where he has played in 14 games. [/li][li]Brady has led a game-winning drive to break a tie or take the lead in the fourth quarter of each of the Patriots’ three Super Bowl victories, becoming the only quarterback in NFL history to lead three such gamewinning drives in the Super Bowl. [/li][li]Brady tied an NFL record in 2005 by distributing his 26 touchdown passes to 12 different players. [/li][li]Brady won his first 10 playoff games, setting an NFL record for the most consecutive playoff wins. [/li][li]Brady (24 years, 184 days old) was voted MVP of Super Bowl XXXVI and was the third-youngest player to earn the honor (Marcus Allen, 23 years and 301 days at Super Bowl XVIII and Lynn Swann, 23 years, 316 days at Super Bowl X). [/li][li]Brady threw for 53 yards on the Patriots’ game-winning drive in Super Bowl XXXVI, completing five of his eight passes. Two of his pass attempts were spiked to kill the game clock. With just 1:21 remaining, he moved the Patriots into field goal position without the benefit of timeouts. [/li][li]Brady completed over 70 percent of his passes in four consecutive games during the 2001 season and joined an exclusive club of quarterbacks who accomplished the feat. He joined Joe Montana (8 games, 1989), Troy Aikman (4, 1995), Steve Young (4, 1993) and Sammy Baugh (4, 1945). [/li][*]Brady completed the first 162 passes of his career without an interception. It was the longest streak to start a career in NFL history.[/ul]

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[QUOTE=Ellis Dee]
And 13 short years later you’ll get your first Lombardi trophy.

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Because if you were having an all-time draft you’d end up with the same teams that Brady and Elway played on and playing against the same competition?

57

Well, Ellis Dee has done a good job at overwhelming me with facts, but I still like Montana. I guess, being about the same age as Tom, I’m more jealous and less reverent.

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[QUOTE=Omniscient]
You could make a decent case that Aikman’s Super Bowl blowouts are a more impressive feat than Brady’s 3 close Super Bowl wins. You could also make the case that Elway’s “The Drive” and “The Drive II” were singular moments that place him a step ahead Brady’s similar performances. It’s not for me to say that either criteria is more valid than the other.
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Could you make the case that Elway’s 3 Super Bowl losses in his first five years are more impressive than Brady’s three Super Bowl wins?

Elway’s stats aren’t even close to the same league as Brady’s, Mannings, or even Favre’s. Elway’s career completion percentage was less than 57%. He threw 300 TDs and 226 picks. His career passer rating is below 80… he had 6.1 yards/attempt… Each of those stats individually might not mean a whole lot. But when you look at them all together and they’re all below par for the “best QB” question, it might mean something.

You remember Elway throwing rockets, but it’s more important for a QB to throw completions than bullets - Elway’s completion percentage isn’t that good. You remember The Drive as a defining moment for Elway, but he went on to lose the Super Bowl that year (he went 14/38 with 1 TD and 3 INTs). I watched Elway play for years too, but we must have been seeing two different things. He was exciting to watch, fun to watch, and often nerve-racking… but there are a number of guys I’d take ahead of him for an all-time team.

59

[QUOTE=zamboniracer]
Wrong. Great QBs with no blocking have no chance to succeed. Consider Jim Plunkett who was a bum for the Patriots but a two time SB champ/HOF hero for the Raiders. The difference: good blockers and good receivers played for the Raiders but not for the Pats.
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Oh, you mean the difference is that Plunkett played on good teams, and that’s why he’s considered a good QB?

I guess I’m wrong.

If Plunkett had played his entire career on that Patriots team, no one would ever think today that Plunkett was a good quarterback.

I’m saying that people try to take down Brady because “he plays on a good team”. There’s no QB you wouldn’t say that about.

If Brady went to the Dolphins next year, he wouldn’t throw 50 touchdowns, but neither would Marino, Manning, Montana or anyone in the history of football. They’ve all done it on good teams. It goes hand-in-hand.

If you want to use the “good team” line to take Brady down a notch, then you need to similarly take every other “good QB” in history down the same notch (like your Plunkett example) and it all comes out in the wash.

60

[QUOTE=Omniscient]
That was fine, but he was 16 of 27 for 145 yards and one touchdown in that game.
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Are you seriously arguing that signature moments don’t count if your stats aren’t good in the game? I don’t think that’s a road you want to go down, especially if you want to mount a case for Elway.