Geez, nice speech; overreact much? You could’ve saved a few paragraphs had you avoided the strawman you built regarding the false dilemma/inaccurate characterization of a QB having to be on a shitty team to pass my HOF muster.
All I’m saying that it’s more difficult to ascertain the extent of Brady’s greatness when he’s locked in a precision system like NE’s. I feel the same way about Montana (and I was a big 49ers fan up until that York fucker). Let’s see Brady do it without a net.
Quarterbacks get too much credit and too much blame for their teams record. They also get too much money. A QB is important but an offense requires blocking ,pass protection and ends that do not drop your passes. Brady was 26 completions in 28 attempts. That is hard even to do in practice. He was very accurate.
It can be argued that his wide receiver corps was not top drawer the last few years. Yet they were still successful. Now they improved the ends and blew out a bunch of teams this year.
Management should get some credit. It is difficult to hold a team together nowadays. Yet they did not provide a deep threat til this year.
I do not know why I am conflicted on Brady. He has done nothing but produce game after game.
I thought it was pretty clear that that’s not my contention. If you read the paragraph in it’s entirety you’ll see that I was merely stating that that performance was not a especially memorable one. The kick tends to be the more talked about aspect, and while Brady was very good on that drive he wasn’t other worldly and back then few people gave him a ton of credit for it, fairly or not.
Interesting, considering he won the MVP award for that Super Bowl.
>snerk<
So did Richard Dent in XX. Brady won that award by default, there was no one player who stood out above the rest so they gave it to the winning QB by default. Not that he didn’t deserve it, just that few people people will be telling their Grandkids about that great Brady Drive.
I’m starting to get what you’re saying.
In a nutshell, Tom Brady is too good to be included in the GOAT conversation, because IYO it’s a purely emotional designation, and in order to qualify you have to put yourself in far more bad situations (that you subsequently claw your way out of through pure grit) than someone as good as Tom Brady will ever find himself in. Am I close? Brady’s too good to be considered for GOAT? I can even almost agree with you based on that logic.
Based on that logic, someone like Elway or Favre or Bernie Kosar is the GOAT. Guys like Marino, Peyton and Brady don’t even get in the discussion. They’re in the best of all time discussion, not the greatest.
Brady is without a doubt the BOAT.
I remember the drive, not the kick. I remember one play in particular. It wasn’t even a very big play. It was early in the drive – the first or second play – when Brady got pressured, sstepped up in the pocket, scrambled a bit and got off a pass for a short gain. What was significant about it wasn’t the gain (which was only like 7 yards), but the way he scrambled and kept the play alive and made something out of nothing. He let it be known at that momenet that he wasn’t just going to run out the clock and hope to get the ball in OT. You could see his team respond to him and you still can.
Brady is not as outwardly emotional as Favre is (he’s not robotic, though), but I think his will to win is palpable. He doesn’t mail anything in and his unflappability pretty obviously (to me) inspires a lot of confidence in his teammates. You can just tell they think they’re invincible when he’s in the game, no matter waht the score is.
I’ll overlook the patronizing tone and try and sum it up for you. Brady is great, he’s in the conversation for GOAT without question, but I’m not ready to give it to him yet. He’s had 1 elite, historic season, this one. The rest of his season’s numbers are very good, but he’s usually in the top 6-10 in any given year. Manning is in the top 3 is basically every season. When compared against his peers Elway was essentially in the same 6-10 every season if you exclude his first few, which were as bad as you’d expect a #1 overall draft pick’s team’s to be. Comparing numbers across the generations is a dicey proposition since 16 or the top 20 career passer ratings (and 10 of the top 20 yards per attempt) are players currently active including stalwarts like Pennington and Rivers. Let’s not get over involved in statistics is all I’m saying. That’s where the “emotional” aspect comes in, you’ve just got to trust your eyes on some of this stuff.
Brady has been in one exceptionally good system his entire career with one coach. To date we really haven’t seen him face adversity. A big part of that is because he’s good enough to avoid adversity, but let’s not pretend he’s the only factor there. It will be interesting to see how he performs over the balance of his career once he’s playing with his equivalent of George Seifert or Barry Switzer.
The GOAT is going to have it all. Longevity, great overall statistics, great individual seasons, MVPs and other accolades, reverence from his peers, a great winning percentage, Super Bowl wins, memorable signature moments and success under a variety of circumstances. Brady already has several of those covered, but not all. I’m not saying that “The Drive” makes Elway better than Brady, but I’m saying it’s something he has that Brady doesn’t yet.
I feel like this is the same conversation we were having about Kobe Bryant in 2003. His numbers in the short term were as impressive or more impressive than Jordan. Lots of people were ready to give him the title of GOAT. Everyone highlighted those early years where Jordan couldn’t do it on his own, but they tended overlook or forget just how incredible it was to watch Jordan dominate. Things the stats didn’t always bear out. Now look where we are, that conversation is pretty much dead and buried…for now.
I feel like Belichick is Brady’s Shaq. We all want to know what will happen when that incredibly successful tandem is broken, and it’s probably unreasonable to come to conclusions on either person until it happens.
ETA:
I 100% agree with this statement. FTR.
The problem I have with guys like Elway, Marino, and Peyton is that they laid some huge, stinkin’ turds in the playoffs. Even worse in Elway’s case is it seemed like he saved them up for the Superbowls. It wasn’t until he was well past his prime and a mediocre QB that he managed to squeeze out a couple trophies on the back of a strong running game. (And his stats sucked pretty badly in the win over the Packers.)
Guys like Brady and Montana have no blemishes. Brady’s offensive system requires much more impressive performances than Montana’s (think Chad Pennington) ever did, so while their successes are similar, Brady is clearly more impressive doing it.
Here’s how I would rate the GOAT candidates:
Winners
/ \
/ \
Chuckers \
Passers
In the winners bracket, I’d put Brady 1 and Montana 2. In the Chuckers bracket, Elway 1 and Favre 2. In the passers bracket, Peyton 1 and Marino 2.
I’d rate every winner ahead of every chucker, and in turn every chucker ahead of every passer. This year Brady has shown that not only is he a winner, but he has the skills of the passers. You talk about how Brady doesn’t have the chucker resume, which I’ll concede. But Elway doesn’t have a single season of elite passing numbers, plus all the playoff stinkers to boot.
I just can’t wrap my head around the idea that the greatest passer of all time put up the following numbers in a Superbowl:
10 of 26 (38.5%) for 108 yards, 0 TDs 2 Ints; Passer Rating: 19.4
That pretty much erases at least two or three signature moments, doesn’t it?
Same here.
I distinctly remember Jon Madden saying that the Pats should sit on it, and take their chances in overtime. It’s one of the most memorable drives in Superbowl history. . .the kid, known only at the time as a sixth round draft pick who was filling in at mid-season for Bledsoe, led a 14 point underdog down the field to win the Superbowl.
Clearly, no one can ever aay again that “Brady is underrated” which used to be true.
However, while he gets tons of credit for his poise, his brains, his accuracy. . .it’s possible that his arm strength is underrated.
That ball was a fucking laser beam. As opposed to Elway, he knows that he doesn’t have to gun it every single time.
You know, I’ve always said that Tom Brady’s not too bad for a back-up QB. 
I think if we’re looking at the off-the-field “emotional” aspects, Tom Brady still has to be in the running. The fact that he was a no-name backup that came out of nowhere to achieve greatness is one of the best stories in NFL history I’d say. Kids 30 years from now will be getting pep talks based on that. Add to that the way he’s conducted himself with class, and showed real loyalty to the Patriots (ie he’s not a TO or a Kobe), and restructured his contract to help the team.
That and the banging Supermodels.
Which only makes him all the more awesome.
Full agreement. He probably has Bundchen sister orgies.
This is the crux of it. Brady is an above average QB with a phenomenal offensive line. Just watch the games, he has all day to throw and when he releases, there isn’t anyone within 5 yards of him. There are a dozen quarterbacks in the league who would do as well as Brady if they were manning the pats offense.
Certainly the Pat’s O-line and offensive weapons are excellent, but you severely underestimate how important Brady is to the whole package.
I don’t know how to say this without sounding condescending, but I don’t mean to.
Totally casual, ignorant football fans tend to ignore line play completely. It’s all about the stars to them.
So when people start becoming more knowledgable football fans, they reach a stage where they realize the importance of line play. But in an effort to seperate themselves from the casual idiots, they overdo it. (I went through this stage myself to some degree). They play up the extreme importance of line play, and talk down the play of “skill” players (a term I hate, by the way). And since they feel that line play dwarfs everything else in comparison, the other players are relatively interchangable. Put another QB in on a team with a great line, and he’ll do just as well. Or the other side of the coin - it’s fine if a certain QB is terrible if he’s playing behind a bad line, because it’s the line’s fault.
It works both ways, of course. Bad line play will drag down an offense. But bad QB/RB play will make a line look worse than it is.
Part of the reason Brady enjoys so much time is that teams are generally unwilling to blitz them - on account of Brady’s ability to make quick, correct decisions and burn them for it. In turn, that makes the line play easier, and so they become even more productive. In turn, that production makes Brady even better. It’s a synergystic effect that can be credited to both the line and the quarterback. Put, say, Charlie Frye behind the Pats O-line and suddenly that offense comes to a screeching halt with a sack every 8 or 9 plays despite the skilled O-line.
Total hijack, but I agree with you 100% on this. (Oh, and I agree with the rest of your post, too.)