I’m simply trying to show you that by automatically saying “All Scientologists are asses” or “All KKK members are evil” you are doing a disservice to those who ARE members of the groups but don’t necessarily share the values of the group. I’m honestly flummoxed that you can’t see this. The KKK example is particularly apt, because there is definitive proof that organization has been infiltrated in the past.
What’s that? They’re not really “members”? Well, it’s kinda hard to infiltrate an organization you don’t join, isn’t it? If there’s one example – ONE EXAMPLE – of a KKK member who wasn’t evil, can’t you see that a statement like “All KKK members are evil” is false?
Look, I’ve got no beef with saying “The KKK is evil.” I DO have a beef when you say “All KKK members are evil.” Do you see the difference there?
But your contention that merely signing the dotted line of the membership application, even by an infiltrator who opposes its ideals, makes one a subscriber to the Klan’s beliefs is ridiculous.
There is no difference. If you support the Klan’s beliefs, you are evil. And once more, NO, infiltrators don’t count because they are not Klan members, they are PRETENDING to be Klan members.
I do not believe in Islam,. I’m certain that the angel Gabriel did not appear to Mohammed and that God did not dictate the Qu’ran.
Now if I say the Shahada, “There is no god but God, and Mohammed is his prophet,” I’m a Muslim! I don’t believe in Islam in any way whatsoever, but I’m a genuine Muslim all the same just because I said those words.
So now Sauron can say at least one Muslim does not believe in the Qu’ran.
What’s that? I’m not a real Muslim? But I said the words, and Sauron says that’s all that’s required for full membership, even if I was completely insincere.
Why not say “All Scientologists are asses, except those who are only pretending or aren’t sure they buy into the entire belief system.”
What’s that? Too hard to say? Then why insist on putting the little word “all” in there in the first place?
Incidentally, gobear, show me where I said all that’s required for full membership in the Muslim faith is a simple recitation. Likewise, show me a KKK infiltrator who got all the information he or she needed five minutes after signing up.
Is it so important to you people that you paint with so broad a brush?
Saying the Shahada IS all that’s required to be a Muslim, provided that you say it in the presence of a believer and that you are sincere. My point is that you cannot distinguish between form and substance.
And you never qualified your contention that infiltrators are full KKK members with having “full information.”
You think an infiltrator can get all the information he needs to effect arrests immediately? What, so they just stay in for months or years at a time because they actually like it?
Sauron, you appear to be completely and totally stuck on this semantic nitpick.
It’s quite obvious that anyone infiltrating an organization as part of their job is not part of that organization. They may have filled out the paperwork, said the oath, learned the secret handshake and whatnot, but they are still NOT a part of the organization because they don’t share the beliefs. They are PRETENDING.
I’m sure an FBI agent that infiltrated the CoS wouldn’t get offended at gobear calling Scientoligists asses. Because he probably thinks so to. I’m sure he wouldn’t consider himself a Scientoligist because I’m assuming he can differentiate between pretending to be something and actually being something. A concept which you are either purposely being obtuse about or genuinly can’t grasp. I think it’s the former.
Sauron, you appear to be completely and totally stuck on this semantic nitpick.
It’s quite obvious that anyone infiltrating an organization as part of their job is not part of that organization. They may have filled out the paperwork, said the oath, learned the secret handshake and whatnot, but they are still NOT a part of the organization because they don’t share the beliefs. They are PRETENDING.
I’m sure an FBI agent that infiltrated the CoS wouldn’t get offended at gobear calling Scientoligists asses. Because he probably thinks so to. I’m sure he wouldn’t consider himself a Scientoligist because I’m assuming he can differentiate between pretending to be something and actually being something. A concept which you are either purposely being obtuse about or genuinly can’t grasp. I think it’s the former.
And gobear, saying that the world isn’t black and white is certainly not “pop psycology”. The world isn’t black and white. You have a tendency to polarize issues, which does little to further your argument.
I think maybe “asses” wasn’t a good word choice because it’s usually linked with “asshole”, not with “gullible.” I don’t think there would be this much debate if a different word was used.
I never said the world was black and white, but by the same token, neither is it a monotonous field of grey. I’m not interested in polarizinf issues, but I’m also not interested in pretending there are no such things as good and evil.
And I never said anything different. In fact, I’ve said I’m fine with claiming organizations as a whole are evil. It’s taking the organization as a whole and attributing every single characteristic of it to each and every individual member that I object to.
Do you honestly not see that the FBI agent that infiltrates the KKK is not the same as the man that chooses to join the KKK because he agrees with their philosophy of white supremacy?
There are indeed many shades of grey in the world.
That said, surely you must aknowledge that evil exists.
that’s the group I couldn’t recall. So, to recap, quietman attributed this event to Co$, I asked for a cite suggesting that I recalled that event being done by the drug rehab group from the 70’s, as the cite demonstrates.
I didn’t doubt that Co$ was capable of nasty stuff, just that particular item was done by a different group. y’all can go back to arguing again.
If I join organization X, Sauron and the underlying tenets of that organization include oppressing a specific race of people, doing everything possible to inhibit them from fully participating in society, and denying their equal rights under the law because they’re a different skin color than me, wouldn’t I be a racist?
And isn’t racism evil?
And wouldn’t that make me an evil for being a member of that group?
Even if I was good to my mamma, always adopted stray dogs, and always braked for kittens.
One just doesn’t cancel out the other.
Yes, jlzania, I see that perfectly well. My point is that others aren’t seeing it.
Let’s say the KKK marches in downtown Wherever. And one of the marchers happens to be an infiltrator.
Someone watching the march might tell a friend, “All those KKK people are evil.” Because, after all, they’re all KKK members, right? They’re all evil, right?
But the person saying that is doing a disservice to the infiltrator. It’s not possible to tell the infiltrator from all the other KKK members.
The person making the remark is right about all the other members. But they’re wrong about that one member.
That’s all I’m saying. Using the word “all” regarding a group is wrong, unless you’ve got definitive proof.
Come on, folks, these are basic scientific and mathematical principles, here.
Or, to employ a Great Debates tactic: “All Scientologists are asses.”
No Sauron, the infiltrator is not a voluntary member of the KKK.
He or she is an agent doing his or her job.
That’s the difference.
The bystander who cannot distinguish this fact is within his rights to consider that infiltrator equally evil until their role is revealed.
When I see a bunch of boys strutting down Congress Avenue in hoods, I cannot help but categorize them as racists and in my book racist = evil.
If one of them wanted to have lunch with me, I’d decline the offer.
When he later revealed that he was a FBI agent, I’d buy him lunch
but I sure wouldn’t feel the need to apologize for the first rejection.
As my Daddy used to say-“Be careful about the company you keep, because others will judge you by them.”
It doesn’t MATTER that they’re not a voluntary member. You’re not saying “All voluntary members of the KKK are evil.” I’m fine with that statement. The sentiment espoused in this thread was “all KKK members are evil.”
I’ve pointed out that a few KKK members, completely indistinguishable from the others, were actually working to destroy that organization. And yet you still want to argue that “all KKK members are evil”?
Because they weren’t members of the KKK-they were infiltrators.
Therefore-they never actually espoused the philosphies of the Klan-indeed, quite the opposite as they were working against the organization.
For the last time, Sauron let me trying framing the question another way.
Let’s say that there is a terrorist group at work in your town.
Let’s say that you’re an undercover police officer and you join said group to ultimately destroy them.
You dress like them, you talk like them, and you act like them.
Are you a terrorist or are you a police officer acting like a terrorist to gather information?
Which is it?
And by this I am not insulting anyone posting in this debate (I’m kinda partial to one in particular) but it seems we have lost track of the original issue…