Tony Blair's Departure: Whither Britain?

Great Debates
21

[QUOTE=Pjen]
Some County Council; some glorification.

The Scottish Parliament controls Education (no league tables, no tuition fees, no City Academies), Health (no Primary Care Trusts, no Hospital Trusts, no hybrid GP clinics), Social Services (no fees in care homes), the Environment (no control of Rights of Way- walk where you want). How’s that for a start.

I moved here two years ago, and let me tell you it feels like a separate country.

I just realized that I can vote Tory for Westminster with impunity up here- almost everything that they could screw up would affect only England, Wales and Northern Ireland, whilst maintaining a left of centre administration in Scotland covering eveything that is important in everyday life.
[/QUOTE]

In case it’s escaped your notice Scotland is a separate country

22

[QUOTE=chowder]
In case it’s escaped your notice Scotland is a separate country
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Not really, except for emotionally and by historic precedent. Do you consider the German Lander as seperate countries? The US states?

23

[QUOTE=Struan]
Not really, except for emotionally and by historic precedent. Do you consider the German Lander as seperate countries? The US states?
[/QUOTE]

Apparently, according to the Wikipedia entry for Scotland, it is considered a “country within a country” in the U.K. system. Whatever that means.

24

Well, considering I was born in Scotland, and my last name is in fact Blair, I’ll be sad to see him go. :frowning:

25

[QUOTE=acsenray]
Apparently, according to the Wikipedia entry for Scotland, it is considered a “country within a country” in the U.K. system. Whatever that means.
[/QUOTE]

It’s not at all straightforward acsenray. Few Scots would consider it to be anything less than a country (including me!), but in the real world it’s a bit more blurred. Some Scottish influences are fundamental to the core of the collective British identity eg Scottish regiments in the Army, the Monarchy; others are very different in nature eg the Scottish legal system has very different roots from the English system, the established church is of a different nature etc. As jjimm said, it’s a bit of an ill-defined jumble.

26

[QUOTE=Struan]
It’s not at all straightforward acsenray. Few Scots would consider it to be anything less than a country (including me!), but in the real world it’s a bit more blurred. Some Scottish influences are fundamental to the core of the collective British identity eg Scottish regiments in the Army, the Monarchy; others are very different in nature eg the Scottish legal system has very different roots from the English system, the established church is of a different nature etc. As jjimm said, it’s a bit of an ill-defined jumble.
[/QUOTE]

Is this something that social scientists have taken a look at? I’d be interested to see the reaction of Scots to speaking statements such as –

I am a Scot/I am Scottish.
I am a Briton/I am British.

When (if at all) would the individual consider it appropriate to say one or the other? What feelings (pride? patriotism?) are associated with one or the other?

27

[QUOTE=Ryan_Liam]
Already been tried and rejected.
[/QUOTE]

When was it tried?

28

[QUOTE=acsenray]
Is this something that social scientists have taken a look at? I’d be interested to see the reaction of Scots to speaking statements such as –

I am a Scot/I am Scottish.
I am a Briton/I am British.

When (if at all) would the individual consider it appropriate to say one or the other? What feelings (pride? patriotism?) are associated with one or the other?
[/QUOTE]

I was maybe 16 years old before I “discovered” that Scotland wasn’t considered a “country.” Mind you I had been living in Canada since the age of 6. I don’t believe any Scot considers himself a Briton. I suppose I should now have some empathy towards the Quebecois?!?!

29

[QUOTE=chowder]
In case it’s escaped your notice Scotland is a separate country
[/QUOTE]

That is what I was saying in response to the assertion that the Scottish Parliament was a glorified county council. I was reinforcing the fact that there are now major differences between legislation in England and legislation in Scotland. Although the administration of Law had always differed, the Legislation used to be the same. Now things are very different.

Now, ten years ago it might have felt like a different Nation which it is and always has been, but almost all laws were identical in England and Scotland and it very much felt like the same Country. Now it is not only a different Nation but also undeniably a different Country.

30

[QUOTE=acsenray]
Is this something that social scientists have taken a look at? I’d be interested to see the reaction of Scots to speaking statements such as –

I am a Scot/I am Scottish.
I am a Briton/I am British.

When (if at all) would the individual consider it appropriate to say one or the other? What feelings (pride? patriotism?) are associated with one or the other?
[/QUOTE]

Try this link, for a pointer. At the least it refers to research on the matter.*

I know that this will probably turn out to be useless to you but I hope there is at least some merit in discussing national identity in terms of sporting allegiance (from a Scottish perspective)?

Football (soccer): No-one will ever fill out a survey claiming to wish the English national team well, but during the recent World Cup I watched all the England games in Scottish pubs, and apart from a couple of blowhard idiots, most people wanted England to win. This may well be because most Scots football fans also have an English club side that they support. Small town syndrome, really. If England had any prospect of winning the whole thing, attitudes would quickly become hostile. English club sides in European competitions are well supported.

Rugby: England team in World Cup Final: No fucking way. Bunch of arrogant fuckers, hope you get humped. Basically anyone but England. This is common amongst the rugby playing countries.

Cricket: England all the way. The Scots who like cricket mostly support England in tests. And there are lots of Scots cricket fans although the game here is mostly just at village level. The last Ashes series kinda rejuvenated things up here.

Olympic games: British team, British supporters. No question whatsoever, full blown support.

TBH, I don’t think the preceding has made much sense. Ach, ye’ve kent its no scientific, acsenray.

*acsenray if you’re genuinely interested I should be able to get some primary survey material and pass it on to you. FWIW I know our First Minister, and a couple of senior civil servants in his office (Scotland really is a small place!).

31

If Blair has any sense, he’ll resign during the Labour Party conference - either at the start or the end - which will totally bollix the other parties’ conferences as the Labour party grabs all the headlines during its internal election. This will give the next leader a sufficient run up to the next election. And Tony Blair and his wife can then freeload around the world as much as they want.

I too look for electoral reform and think a LibDem / Conservative coalition would be interesting. It seems to work reasonably around here. I’d note that if such a coalition were in the offing after the next election, I believe that many the right-wing of the Labour party might well defect to the LibDems, as they did in the initial formation of the SDP.

32

[QUOTE=Struan]
*acsenray if you’re genuinely interested I should be able to get some primary survey material and pass it on to you. FWIW I know our First Minister, and a couple of senior civil servants in his office (Scotland really is a small place!).
[/QUOTE]

I appreciate teh offer, Struan, but as I’m not a researcher in the field and I’m asking merely out of curiosity, I wouldn’t want you to spend your valuable time tracking down original research for me.

33

[QUOTE=Quartz]
I too look for electoral reform and think a LibDem / Conservative coalition would be interesting. It seems to work reasonably around here. I’d note that if such a coalition were in the offing after the next election, I believe that many the right-wing of the Labour party might well defect to the LibDems, as they did in the initial formation of the SDP.
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:confused: “Right wing of the Labour Party” – wouldn’t that be, well, Blair?

34

How would this be different from the President of the United States being from Texas. Texas was another country. Texas fought a civil war against the United States. There are many traditions unique to Texas.

However, for better or worse, Texas is part of the United States. Scotland is part of the United Kingdom.

35

[QUOTE=dalej42]
How would this be different from the President of the United States being from Texas. Texas was another country. Texas fought a civil war against the United States. There are many traditions unique to Texas.

However, for better or worse, Texas is part of the United States. Scotland is part of the United Kingdom.
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Scotland existed as an independent nation a lot longer than Texas did.

36

[QUOTE=dalej42]
How would this be different from the President of the United States being from Texas. Texas was another country. Texas fought a civil war against the United States. There are many traditions unique to Texas.

However, for better or worse, Texas is part of the United States. Scotland is part of the United Kingdom.
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Indeed it is but I was making reference to Pjenns post #17.

He stated that he’d moved from England to Scotland 2 years ago and that it felt like a different country.

Just like Wales is a country within the UK so is Scotland but both are countries within their own right.

37

[QUOTE=dalej42]
How would this be different from the President of the United States being from Texas. Texas was another country. Texas fought a civil war against the United States. There are many traditions unique to Texas.

However, for better or worse, Texas is part of the United States. Scotland is part of the United Kingdom.
[/QUOTE]

Your scenario doesn’t cover the particular case of Scotland, and of the West Lothian question. If Texas was the only state which could pass its own laws, and all other state laws were created in Washington, and if Texas senators and congressmen had power over those other state laws but Washington had no power over Texan law, then you’d have something resembling the situation of the Scottish parliament.

38

[QUOTE=chowder]
Just like Wales is a country within the UK so is Scotland but both are countries within their own right.
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Not quite “just like”, since Scotland has its own legal system and tax-raising capabilities, while Wales has its largely ineffectual Assembly but shares its legal system with England.

As for Scots who consider themselves British, Leaffan, they definitely exist. Indeed, at the last independence referendum in 1979, not only did they exist, they were in the majority.

39

I’m well aware that Scotland has its own legal system etc. but the fact remains that Scotland whilst being part of the UK is nevertheless a country within a country

40

[QUOTE=chowder]
I’m well aware that Scotland has its own legal system etc. but the fact remains that Scotland whilst being part of the UK is nevertheless a country within a country
[/QUOTE]
Yes, but it’s not “just like Wales”, which is the only thing I was objecting to.