Tony Soprano, evil?

Great Debates
1

I just saw the first season of the Sopranos on VHS.

I almost see the whole thing as a morality play on the nature of good and evil.

Using the definition of evil from http://www.dictionary.com:

I would argue that Tony Soprano is not evil. In fact, he is one of the true fully morac characters in the series.

Consider the episode where he takes his daughter Meadow to look at colleges. He happens to see an infamous snitch in hiding, and the snitch sees him.

He knows that it is his duty to dispose of the snitch. Rather than use the fact that his daughter is with him as an excuse to have somebody else do it, Tony insists on doing it himself.

At one point the snitch sees Tony and follows him to the hotel, but doesn’t shoot him because he’s with his daughter.

Later, Tony garrots the snitch who as he’s choking pleads for mercy, saying he could have killed Tony the night before, but didn’t becuase of his kids. Tony is unswayed, and he finishes the job.

All through this intrigue he manages to keep up appearances with his daughter, and actually do some quality parenting.

It should also be noted that Tony visited the Snitches house and saw the snitch and his family, but left. It is not known whether he desisted from killing the snitch then because the family was with him, or was merely trying to get a better ID.

Now, many ethical systems allow for the use of violence in certain circumstances. For Tony and his ethical system it would have been immoral to let the snitch slide. The Snitch had broken his vow of silence and required the punishment that he fully new would be coming both when he made the vow and when he broke it. For Tony, it was simply a matter of duty.

2

I think the whole thing about the Sopranos (and you’ll see a lot of this in season two, the “heartbreaking season” as I call it) is that it’s all about his struggle with Good and Evil, and how for his world, evil is defined by a completely different set of values. The conflict comes when he has to deal with “real world” values as opposed to “soprano family values”

Dealing with Meadow is real world.

Dealing with a rat is Soprano.

He does “good” in both cases, but it’s different good.

In any event. He’s sexier than hell.

jarbaby

3

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Just to make it clear we’re talking about a character who makes his living through extortion, theft, and murder. Up until this past season he shown very little empathy for those who weren’t his friends or family.

**

And Nixon loved his dog but that didn’t make him a good man.

It was still murder. His code also includes killing rivals and breaking bones of people who don’t want to do business with him. What about all those people who didn’t take any vows of silence?

Marc

4

I’m confused. How does a man who causes so much misery to others, his family included, be considered sexy? As I said before this is a man who makes his way through the world by murder, extortin, thieving, and to top things off he is constantly cheating on his wife. He is a bad man. How many women actually want a guy like that in their lives?

Marc

5

Well, to me, power in any form is sexy. Alan Rickman in Die Hard is sexy. Henry V is sexy. Tony Soprano is sexy.

jarbaby

6

Marc, I’d also like to add that Tony Soprano is fictional. He is a fictional character that has been carefully constructed to keep us viewers going back and forth on the good v. evil question. While real mobsters might or might not behave they way Tony did in the situation outlined by Scylla in the OP, I would be very suprised if you could ever chart a real person’s behavior in such a way that just about every action would see-saw between good and bad, particularly over the course of 60 minutes. I think it speaks to the talent of the writers, directors, and actors that Tony Soprano often seems like a pretty decent guy even when we see him kill a person in the same episode.

7

Sigh. After reading my post, I realize that I start off in a way that might be taken as insulting to MGibson. I did not mean to imply that you, Marc, are ignorant of the fact that Tony Soprano is not a real person. It was a badly worded way of introducing my point that when we look at our reaction to a fictional character, we should also keep in mind that the writers are intentionally manipulating how we see that character, and in what context we view his actions.

8

I dunno, man…I wonder how garrotting someone who pleads for mercy wouldn’t be a deciding factor regarding whether the killer is “evil”.

And, to hijack for a second, it kinda worries me that so many people seem to hold this character in such high esteem, and are so into the Mafia thing in general. In fact, it’s getting me riled, so I’m gonna put up a GD thread now :slight_smile: /hijack

9

Marc has this exactly right. The central difficulty in The Sopranos is not whether or not Tony Soprano is evil. He is manifestly so, and the show seems almost completely unconcerned with sophistries about the knowability of evil.

What confronts us as we sit down to watch the Sopranos is the question, “How can I feel such empathy for this man?! He’s evil – and I know it – but I like him anyway.”

It’s the same question that confronts Artie as he begins to realize what happened with his restaurant. Or Meadow, in the college episode. Or Anthony, or Mrs. Soprano, or Dr. Cusamano…

The fact is, evil is not Alan Rickman in ‘Die Hard’. It’s subtler and more comfortable than that. It is seductive, even when we can see it right in front of us.

The question is – if the economy’s good and we have a shiny car in the driveway and everyone’s waiting around to tell us how sophisticated we are for putting up with it – are we going to wink at it, or are we going to be better?

That’s why it’s such an engrossing show.

10

Originally posted by jarbabyj

quote:

“Well, to me, power in any form is sexy.”

Really? I’m not trying to sound like a smartass or trying to be nasty, I swear. I’m honestly amazed, though. Power in any form is sexy? I’m guessing that when you wrote it, you might not have taken into account what a sweeping generalization “power in any form” is. If you did indeed take into account the fact that certain monstrous world figures (past/present)would fit under “immensely powerful”, then could you explain why power is alluring enough as to allow you to see those men as sexy?

11

Well I do understand that he is a fictional character and don’t worry I wasn’t insulted by your first message. After seeing his character in action I can’t come to any other conclusion other then that he is in fact a bad bad man. I think the writers have done a pretty good job of showing us that he’s a bad man.

James Gandolfini himself has said in interviews that Tony Soprano is not a nice guy. In fact the last one I read he said he was getting a bit tired of playing such a violent man and he sounded interested in other roles. I think this was an interview I read on MSN.com but I can’t find a cite for it.

Marc

12

Yeah? How about Hitler? Was he sexy?

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php?action=getinfo&userid=11645

According to your profile, the Marquis de Sade is “severely misunderstood”. Just how sick and mean does a guy have to be before he’s not sexy?

Tony Soprano is evil. I’m bothered that the script writers never show this sick f*ck getting his just desserts. The audience is lulled into sympathising with him because his mother is such a pain.

I’m also upset that the show is so damn addictive and I can’t stop watching it?:smiley:
Tony is evil, though.

13

I think the question itself needs some clarification. We’re supposed to debate whether we think Tony is evil from a moralistic standpoint. But are we supposed to do this using our own morals.

Should we be debating “Does Tony see himself as evil?” Probably not. Most people don’t.
How about “if I had my own morals but was living Tony’s life, would I consider my actions to be evil?”
What about “Based upon the assumption that murder is wrong, would Tony be considered evil?”
Or perhaps “Does being a good parent allow you to be bad in other aspects of your life and still come out OK, karmalistically?”

14

I disagree with you, Enderw24. The premise of the entire first season is that Tony is seeking psychiatric care – at least in part – because the objective immorality of virtually everything that he is and does has become too much for him to bear. The basic assumption of the writers seems to be that – postmodernism notwithstanding – certain things just are wrong, no matter who you are or what you think. What’s hard is finding the strength to acknowledge what’s right and do it. Failing that, all that’s left is to find a shrink with nice legs and hopefully get a little restful sleep every now and then. Tony’s a sympathetic character in spite of his wickedness, because we can see how his refusal to simply be good hollows him out. I don’t think Tony cares a rip about karma. He just wishes he were better.

15

Well jesus christ, of course Hitler wasn’t sexy. And if you’re going to use that extreme we don’t even have to argue anymore.

Every hear of ‘bad boy appeal’? Power is sexy. It’s no secret to anyone here that I am a submissive woman, that I love dominant powerful men. I love men who control other people and large situations. I love men who call the shots and look good doing it.

Of course saying “power in any form is sexy” is a sweeping generalization. I’m trying to be tabloidian. But if I must break it down:

Artistic and Emotional power is sexy (that’s why I lust after good writers like Eric Bogosian),

Political Power is sexy (that’s why I love Tony Blair)

Athletic power is sexy (that’s why I love Kerry Wood and Brian Urlacher)

and finally, yes:

Frightening, Dangerous power is also sexy (that’s why I love Tony Soprano, Stanley Kowalski, Macbeth, Javert, Couer de Fer, and Todd Manning)

And wait a minute, what do we have here? When I look under Frightening and Dangerous, I see that every single person I listed is fictional. That’s because literary villains are always sexier and more brilliant and handsome than actual criminals. It’s called a fantasy life.

So I guess what I should have said is Power in Most forms is sexy, with the exception of Genocidal, Facist Maniacs. It just didn’t flow right at the time :rolleyes:

The Marquis de Sade is not misunderstood because I think he was sexy, he is misunderstood because many people forget what a sweeping, epic, talented writer he was. Justine, in my opinion is just as good as Les Miserables. Also, the modern definition of Sadism is misconstrued as “hurting other people for sexual pleasure.” Sadism, in its truest form is “gaining your own pleasure at any expense. Putting the law of Nature first and foremost, and pursuing sexual satisfaction to it’s fullest.” If that means flogging someone, do it. If it means being flogged, that’s Sadism too.

Tony Soprano, in season one, got out of his chair in the doctor’s office, wrapped his hand around Doctor Malfi’s neck and kissed her right on the mouth without a moment’s hesitation.

I’ve only known one guy in the world with the balls to do that, and I think it’s sexy as hell.

And I won’t apologize.

jarbaby

16

Mr. Billy I think you contradicted yourself. If Tony doesn’t give a rip about karma, just wants to get himself better, then he doesn’t really care about knowing right from wrong.
He’s sick of the blackouts. He wants them cured. He wants the doctor to tell him what he needs to do to cure those fainting spells ASAP. He’s not really that interested in why it’s happening, he just wants them to stop. If he considered himself evil, he’d be trying to change. He doesn’t. He’s justified to himself that he isn’t. He just has a few problems he needs to work through, but he’s not evil. Like most people view themselves.
Despite what numerous B movies tell you, the evil guy isn’t in a black cape in the corner cackling to himself about taking over the world. He just takes over the world because he’s decided that his way is the best way and the best way is good. So he’s good.

17

I had the balls to do that…when I was single. However I’m now married, and I know that if I fooled around on my wife it would hurt her terribly. Tony doesn’t seem to give a rats ass about anyone except himself. I’ve met tons of jerks like this in real life. They leave a trail of people they’ve hurt terribly, most of them women who fell for the sexy bad boy thing.

I personally don’t think Tony is seeing a shrink because he has an internal conflict of his life style v.s. values of right & wrong, , etc… I think his biggest problem is that his family is just a big pain in the ass for him. Having to deal with his mother, wife, and kids, are “adult” type things that this prick is forced to deal with, but being selfish as a child it eats away at him. He’d rather drink, screw other women, steal, and kill people, than to face the responsibilities of adult life that everyone else has to.
He’s merely trying to fool himself into believing that he gives a shit about anyone else but himself. Lie to yourself long enough, and you too will become mentally ill.

18

“The Sopranos” is the classic villain-as-protagonist story. Ordinarily, we think of the protagonist as the hero of the story, and the audience tends to automatically identify with him/her. But, of course, protagonist doesn’t mean hero, it means lead character.

Having the protagonist as hero is so ingrained in our culture that we subconsciously want the lead character to be the good guy. With “The Sopranos”, it is entirely unambiguous: Tony is evil. He does evil to further his own ends and for no other reason. The MacBeth parallel was a good one. Like MacBeth, Tony tries to hide his evil acts behind a veil of some code of honor that is really just an elaborate justification of might is right.

The good Tony does for his daughter is tainted by the fact that his ability to provide nice things for her such as a good college education is the product of evil acts. What “good” he does is the product of evil. Think of the scene in “Lethal Weapon 2” in the sea crate. Det. Murtaugh refuses to take the money that could pay for his children’s college education because it’s drug (heroin) money. It is the product of an evil which destroyed the lives of many children like his. Using this money for his personal gain or to help his family would taint the act.

Nothing Tony Soprano does can ever be considered free of this taint of evil. He kills people to make himself successful. Everything that comes out of that success is morally poisoned by its origin. Nothing he does is ever completely clean.

Which isn’t to say that The Sopranos isn’t a fascinating show, in much the same way that Reservoir Dogs is a wonderful movie. It shows us an upside down morality; the good guy in Dogs (Mr. Orange) is the antagonist, but by this warped sense of morality, he is the bad guy. The Sopranos shows what a truly warped perception these people have.

19

I also think that the there is a semantic difficulty at play when we try to classify anyone as either good or evil. A human being is an incredibly complex entity and I for one find it simplistic and alltogether shallow to try and describe something as either good or evil. The earlier post was right in pointing out the intentional portrayal of Tony as a character walking both sides of the line of modern day notions of good and evil.
The fact is that most mob activities that Tony engages are violent and self-serving. Does he love his kids? I think he does. Is he capable of feeling regret and remorse? To a degree as when burnt down Artie’s restaurant. But I don’t think the point is to isolate each and every action that Tony does and classify it as good or evil and then add up the sum.
I don’t mean to hijack this thread and turn it into a debate on moral relativism but I think that is the crux of the issue that is being debated here. Is Tony evil, I don’t think he believes he is evil. I don’t think that the Prime minister of Isreal believes he is commiting any evil when ordering strikes which kill Palestenian civilians. Is the suicide bomber who kills women and children for the freedom of his people evil?? Were all white slaveowners evil? What is evil? I’m going crazy here with these child-like categories.
I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say that I don’t believe there is such a thing as good or evil, just relative degrees of confusion and ignorance which all human beings stumble around in because they are under the illusions that their self interests diverge from others as a whole. It’s not our fault, we are just products of the confusion of the human race as a whole as it slowly evolves from its animal ancestry (Tony the mobster) to our divine nature as true Human Beings (Tony the Family Man).
Tony Soprano is incredibly lost. Like Darth Vader, and like all human beings, his true nature is loving and good as we can see by his affections for his children, wife, friends etc… and all other actions which may be termed as “good.” But Tony also stumbles in confusion born from a host of causes most of which stem from his childhood (jeez, the guy’s dad was a gangser too!!!) and so he is full of various twisted pathologies, desires, illusions as to what will fullfill him, what it means to love…etc… and he roams around lost between these too worlds, the light and the dark, yin and yang, never to be at peace and only to further his own suffering and those around him (and to fuel their own confusion.)
Is Tony evil? I don’t think so. Just sick, sicker than most of us and the people we associate with, but sick nonetheless. And we would do well to remember our own sicknesses, they may not be as far away from Tony as we think.

20

So, if a serial killer had you hanging upside down by your feet and was skinning you alive for the fun of it, that would be an indication of his confusion and ignorance? Horsefeathers. there are a lot of evil people out there. People who enjoy the suffering of others.

And Scylla

This does assume that Tony would not become a snitch himself if he were facing a life sentence. And that Tony didn’t enjoy exacting this revenge.