Top Secret American Destupization Project

I would question the entire premise that high education leads to better voting citizens. If that were the case, Berkeley California would be a model of intelligent government.

The fact is, very smart, very educated people believe a lot of really dumb things. And what’s worse, they are often so arrogant that they think they have a right to tell other people what to do.

And most of these tests of intelligence boil down to trying to filter out the people who believe the same things you do, because you’re so damned sure that your special brand of knowledge is the most important and that your ideas are most correct. I don’t see anyone here arguing that you should have a working knowledge of crop seeding and harvesting to be a good voter, but agricultural policy is extremely important. I don’t see anyone arguing that you should know how frame a house before they can vote, but we elect people who set building codes.

So I have a better idea - rather than having some overweening technocratic government that needs highly educated citizens to run it with their votes, how about we just cut the size of government and let people live their own lives?

Quite possibly. I’m a journalist, not an accountant. Like everyone else in Australia, I take my paperwork to my accountant every year along with my receipts and he does the tax return and files it and lets me know if I’ll be getting a cheque or if I owe the ATO money.

But I do know that when normal people talk about “tax deductions” in everyday use, it means anything they can claim off their taxes. And if you say that something is “tax deductible” then the implication- certainly to almost anyone I’ve ever spoken to- is that they can claim the cost of the item back on their taxes.

H&R Block even advertise how they will get you the “Maximum possible deduction” on your taxes- in other words, how to let you claim back a heap of work-related expenses and get a refund. Now, we can argue semantics about whether that’s a “tax credit” or a “tax deduction” but to the average man on the street (not your average SDMB member) there’s no difference between the two concepts, and even if there is, that’s what they pay an accountant to take care of.

they, like you, are sadly lacking in any apparent understanding of what they are talking about.

Yes, but it has a marketing advantage in that someone would pay you ten dollars for two nickels if you told him it was tax deductible.

Those are not the elites, those are the pseudo-elites. The real elites realize just how little they know about the majority of things and are able to work constructively and cooperatively with non-elite experts in those areas. It is their accurate and candid evaluation of their own strengths versus weaknesses that sets the elites apart from, and above, the pseudo-elites. Unfortunately, there are a heck of a lot more pseudo-elites than elites.

The non-elites are not a problem so long as they accept that there are distinct and appropriate roles for both the elites and themselves. The wild-card is the pseudo-elite population. Where do they fit it? Is it possible to stroke their fragile egos but at the same time make it clear to them that they haven’t the wherewithal to lead, and further, that it would be counter-productive (for everyone) if they were to insist attempting to? Can they be placated?

See, now *that’s * funny. Nice work!:smiley:

Ironically, Sam seems to be channelling Chairman Mao. Anyone know a good exorcist?

Used to be about the will of the people, how common sense moved Americans to a conservative viewpoint and resulted in a sensible, sane governance.

Something seems to have gone terribly wrong, and rather recently. Can’t imagine what it might have been. But it appears that our tighty righty brethren have had their faith in democracy sorely tested.

I think 90% of the people don’t know enough mathematics to understand what real economy is about.

Agreed on your geographical point because you’re right that the problem is not the map but the mindset.

I, however, think that voting is so important that you must prove that the person you want to deny voting rights to must be incapable of understanding something like “Increase taxes for the stadium” and how it affect him, rather than simply not kn owing or caring.

How about you have to pass a test to vote in elections? But not just any old intelligence test. Intelligence (however you define it) is not the point. I’m talking about a test specifically on the candidates and propositions on the ballot. You would have to pass this test with 80% accuracy to get your ballot.

For example:
[ul]
[li]Correctly match the candidate to his or her positions on five key issues[/li][li]Select the correct summary of proposition B (whatever that is in that particular election cycle and location)[/li][li]Select the correct description of [e.g. “advanced care planning consultations”] (or some particular hot topic that election cycle)[/li][li]Select the official, national/state Democratic party stance on [issue][/li][/ul]

I could see a question that states the exact wording of a passage in a bill/proposition, and then an official party/candidate interpretation of that wording and the consequences of the bill/proposition. The prospective voter could be asked to match the interpretation to the party/candidate. In this case, the correct answer would not be about selecting the “correct” interpretation, but simply matching interpretations of a text to the party/candidate. Personally, I find it extremely informative to look at a passage of legislation and see how people interpret it.

This would not be a pop quiz. Civic organizations could “teach to the test” beforehand as necessary. People could get help understanding the language of various propositions/platforms. On the other hand, people also could take their chances on keeping informed by watching various media channels or listening to a pastor in church. Beware, however, that you select a good information source!

The real trick would be to write the questions. To be a fair, non-partisan test (as a whole, not regarding specific platforms), it would need input on the wording of questions and answers from the various parties on the ballot. The wording would need multi-party approval/consensus for each question.

Even better, the parties would have to publicly and legally state their approval for a question’s wording. That way, for example, taking heads could yap about “death panels” and euthanasia until the cows came home, but unless a party was willing to publicly sign off on something as a definition for “advanced care planning consultations” or whatever that answer wouldn’t appear on the test. Candidates could provide answers to their platforms on the various issues for the candidate/issue matching questions.

The objective is not to promote a particular political viewpoint but, rather, to promote insight on the issues and the platforms of candidates, parties, interest groups, and so on. There are legitimate differences of opinion across the political spectrum – and these differences could be highlighted in the questions – but there is also a heck of a lot of ignorance on issues.

Yeah, so I just made this up in 5 minutes, and it could be completely unworkable in the real world. But I wish that there was some sort of mechanism to at least test awareness of the issues before someone gets to vote. I’ll count myself among the guilty, by the way, having gone into a booth and voted on a proposition without really investigating it beforehand. Having to pass a test would inspire me to at least take five minutes reading up on a question on whether my local government can issue a bond, or something.

Yup, this would put a dent in voter turn out. And it may have a negative effect on lower income voters without the time and resources to research topics. Frankly, I’m not sure what the work around on that would be. Like I said, I just made this up… and it would take a lot more thought to hammer out the details.

Replace the voting ballot with a new-SAT-style essay question where you have to explain who you choose and why. Superficial or incorrectly argued essayvotes would be discounted.

I’d make billions on an iphone app to use in the voting booth that generates slightly unique essays for any given candidate by aggregating opinion pieces about each and heuristically reorganizing words and phrases.

Riviulus and Weirdaaron, you’re going to run into the same problem that I pointed to in my post upthread: disparate racial impact leading to wailing and gnashing of teeth from “community activists.” Think New Haven Firefighters times 1000.

An easy way to avoid accusations of racial disparity because of black, urban types that can’t read or write would be to simply not let any black people vote.

Another problem it would run into is the general ridiculousness of all these proposals. Not for literal interpretation.

My plan to have sex with Megan Fox and Rhianna looks much better than your voting plan. So many subjective points would make the countig and re-counting of the votes would make you long for the simpler days of the Bush/Gore election.

There is no way, even for a hypothetical scenario, that you can aggressively limit the number of those who vote (even based on good science) and at the same time remain a democratic state. Very soon, you’ll find the argument that even fewer should vote until 10 “intleligent” guys do it.

We could have a property requirement, on the assumption that you have to not be completely retarded to earn enough money to buy your own digs. At least that is a model that has worked in other countries, whereas intelligence tests have never been stably used.

Never heard of that. Example countries?

Personally, having rejected the idolization of general intelligence (yes, I.Q.) as inhumane and unfair, I think most of the folks in this thread are coming at the idea of stupidity from a biased, unnecessarily political standpoint. Even testing based on mathematical, geographical, or tradeskill knowledge is misguided (as are many tests students take), because in the testing there is no reason to assume a desire for that knowledge. As has been pointed out, having the right answer to a test can be cheated, faked, or bought in any number of ways. Whether in the classroom or in the death-ray voting booth, tests have a fatal flaw: they don’t care whether the answerer wants to know anything on which they’re reporting.

Eliminating taxes on books, especially non-fiction, is a good start, but you’ll still have people who only seek out the opinions of those with whom they already know they’ll agree. This is where most of the dangerous and addictive stupidity lies in modern society: people don’t desire to form their own opinions because they have newsanchors, editors, and bloggers who can gather, analyze, and wax poetic on the information in their stead, and all the layman has to do is consume it.

Stupidity is not ignorance of a certain genre of knowledge. Stupidity is the absence of a desire for knowledge and the motivation to critically examine it in the context of one’s world.

As dropzone mentioned upthread, people these days are no longer limited to talking to people in their own town, which is why it seems like there’s more stupid-itis going around. This works both ways, however: when people can only communicate in small groups, the desire for knowledge (at least for local knowledge) is a thirst that can’t be quenched. Knowledge solves problems and critical thought gives new insight to old problems. Before the internet and information-aggregators, knowledge and the ability to use it was a rare and beautiful thing, even if it was far more limited in scope and accuracy. Nowadays, any subject such as horse-riding grandmastery appears from the ground level to contain too much information for any one person to sift through–and why bother? horsemastah.blogspot has already done most of the work, even if he may have left out the histories of pro-feminist horses due to an unspoken political bias.

What I mean is: it’s too attractive for people to spend time consuming someone else’s opinion rather than spending more time to form their own. What this leads to is a) opinions based on ignorance of how the world works, b) politicians out of touch with their constituents, and c) a blind trust for anything said on one’s own favorite news networks.

And there are reasons for Joe Sixplumber and his extended family to know where Iraq is on a map. Even the most noble Joe, a family man with interior defense on the brain, ready to volunteer to be shipped out wherever his country needs him, should be aware that Iraq is right next to Syria and a lot of other countries where the culture and history includes a lot of reason to hate the U.S. and, by extension, U.S. troops. Joe Sixprivate might like to know this intimately before he ships off, but not knowing it is his own onus.

Joe Sixhawk, however, who will vote all day to “glass the bastards!” without knowing any of the history or danger into which he’s voting to put his own fellow citizens while spending their tax money - he actually has an obligation on behalf of both the volunteer military and the politicians whose opinions he can sway by having a voice to learn what the fuck it means to invade a place like Iraq, so an informed and fair and balanced decision can be made on whether it’s a good thing to lobby for and support.

(But now that I’ve gone and blown my careful cover about my own liberal bias, I’d like to share an anecdote to respond to my esteemed colleague Sam Stone. In high school I had the option to take any number of vocational classes that would have helped better me as a person. If I’d taken Car Machinery, then I’d have gotten easy credit hours for learning how to change my own oil and troubleshoot my engine. Unfortunately, I already had a lot of run-ins with the types of folks who filled those classes, and those were the types who may’ve liked to take advantage of the loud, cramped quarters of a garage to get easy credit hours for learning how to beat the hell out of a faggot, rather than just doing it between classes. Make of this what you will, but don’t pretend - as chappula has - that most good ol’ boys in the South will treat you politely in a discussion if they think your views on religion and politics differ from theirs. Mandatory service on a farm is just as bad as mandatory knowledge of quantum physics, but one of those types of knowledge can usually be gained without the risk of encountering the type of person whose knuckles itch when they see a guy wearing a suit outside of church.)

Now that that’s out of the way :slight_smile: The only concrete solutions I can think of for getting people to trust their own brains rather than the brains of John Stewart or Rush Limbaugh are either to deregulate the airwaves so that it becomes a mess of uninformed opinions and people have to scrounge for unbiased news, thus weeding out unreliable sources and once again acquiring a healthy skepticism for what they hear; or offering a sweepstakes after every news broadcast that can be entered by anyone who sends in evidence of factual errors or overly biased selectiveness/language in the broadcast. It would need to be a random drawing, so people would avoid making cheat-sheets of relevant counterfacts (until after the drawing, since those cheat-sheets would be quite informative) and thus becoming a second strata of opinionmonger. The sweepstakes could be sponsored by the government or a rival news network, though that would just encourage bizarre opinions to bankrupt one’s opponents. Or we could go balls-to-the-Berlin-wall and just have the government force political opinionmongers in the U.S. to cough up money for the sweepstakes themselves, as long as they’re, say, folks who make over half of their income by broadcasting their opinion on global news and politics and they make over a few million per year total.

So err, the details need some working out. But, in short, I think the way to get people to think more is to discourage the influence of political jockeys so more folks have to go to smaller sources (whether bloggers or the AP) to fit the pieces of information together.

Now, where’s that endless taco bar?! :smiley:

And what keeps the property owners from passing the “renters pay 90% tax” law?

I like this idea. But apply it to everybody who broadcasts. A big-ass bond that has to be put up before every broadcast, and said bond is forfeit to a random fact-checker if there are more than a certain percentage of lies, distortions, falsehoods or spins in the broadcast. It would bankrupt FOX in a weekend! :smiley:

Break the two-party system. (Use various tactics as necessary.) I believe that if we remove the tactic of pointing at the “other side” and saying “Them! They’re the bad guys! KILL!! KILL!!”, then we will remove the ability of a party to scoop up large chunks of the unthinking populace with energetic nonsense and venom alone. If there are three ‘conservative’ parties then the conservatives will have to either get smart enough to figure out which of them they actually like, or they will be unable to decide which to support, and may marginalize themselves. In either case, the threat from the stupids will be greatly reduced.

To do this right, of course, we will have to avoid to coalitions forming that are ‘effectively’ two parties, but this should be doable.

Of course, this wouldn’t really be attacking stupid people - it attacks stupid politics, which I mind more. So I am technically aiming to solve a different problem than the OP.