I’ve been frequently accused (including by my wife) of making inappropriate jokes, which I acknowledge to be true. Admittedly, dark humor is a coping mechanism for me when I’m stressed or sad, but I also sometimes (OK, frequently) lack the “you probably shouldn’t say that right now” filter.
As others have already noted, I think that, with the right audience, and the right timing, the list of things that are never appropriate for humor, among anyone, is very short, if it exists. But, I also recognize the big caveat in there: the right audience, and the right timing. For many people, there are topics that are never funny, and to act as though that’s a character flaw in someone is, IMO, inappropriate.
There are topic areas that I wouldn’t ever broach with humor, and about which attempts at humor are likely to make me uncomfortable, including sexual assault, school shootings, and racial humor. That said, I also acknowledge that, when I was younger, I almost undoubtedly did, at times, make those sorts of jokes. Yeah, I could argue that it was in a different era, when societal norms were different, but, no, I need to own that I was just a jerk about it, and plead ignorance and immaturity.
Whenever a topic like this comes up, there’s always either confusion or deliberate conflation between “jokes about a thing” and “jokes about jokes about a thing” (and jokes about jokes about jokes and so on). Almost all funny jokes about sensitive topics aren’t about the topic itself, they’re meta jokes about the sensitivity of the topic. By claiming that, just because they include the topic, they’re about the topic, it makes it difficult to draw clear lines around topics in a way that’s meaningful.
For example, for certain jokes, a man and a woman could be telling the same joke (ie: the same sequence of words), but they’re telling different jokes (ie: the man is making fun of the woman, the woman is making fun of the fact that men tell those jokes).
Daniel Tosh is an insult comic. Going to a Daniel Tosh event and expecting to be treated reverently and politely is as stupid as doing the same thing with Sam Kinison, Don Rickles, or Andrew Dice Clay. Telling him that certain jokes are never funny was as self-aware as hand-feeding a great white shark.
I think part of the issue is that comedy is about risk. It can be about risk in a way that changes how you think about life, and this is my favorite kind of comedy. Tig Notaro’s set at the Largo making comedic fodder out of her recent breast cancer, or Patton Oswalt’s comedy set on trying to help his daughter cope with the death of her mother are good examples of this. I think I honor emotional risk in comedians more than ‘‘risk of offense.’’ Mike Birbiglia has built a career off of being honest about what an awkward motherfucker he is. Maria Bamford entertains through her neuroses. I like stuff that is provocative in a way that challenges the status quo. Bo Burnham employs offensive tactics but he does it in such an emotionally vulnerable way, it’s hard to hate on him.
I didn’t really appreciate Bill Burr as a comedian until I heard an extensive conversation about that Philly set between him and Chris Hardwick on the Nerdist. And it became clear that set was about more than that moment, but about a classic struggle faced by comedians in their everyday work. And that was exactly Patton Oswalt’s point. People might look at that set and think, oh, Bill Burr is so thin-skinned, but they are critcizing him based on ignorance about what it means to be a comedian. Just as those who criticized that woman for being upset about Tosh’s comments came from a place of ignorance about what it means to be constantly subjected to demeaning comments, attitudes and behavior based on your gender. However justified his anger about being heckled, he went too far, in a way that hurts women.
I say shit in the privacy of my own home, with my own husband, that has so many possible uncharitable interpretations that there is no way in hell I would make those same jokes around other people. I can do it with him because he knows my heart. Then I have a particular friend on this board with whom I feel safer to take comedy risks than probably anyone else I know. I have certain horrible thoughts where I know I can just run to him and get a laugh. There’s a weird, special connection in being able to do that with someone. It requires feeling safe.
Stand-up comedians are in the unfortunate position of trying to achieve that weird, special connection with thousands of people. It is an inherently risky proposition. And while I don’t feel like I’m concealing my soul by passing on an offensive joke in public, I bet comedians kinda do. I don’t think it means ‘‘anything goes.’’ I don’t think it means you get absolved from sending shitty messages if you are, in fact, sending shitty messages. At bottom, we can’t control what we find funny. But I think we can control what messages and social atittudes we choose to reinforce.
We played Cards Against Humanity with my parents over Christmas. With my kids. So my past 70 parents, my young adult children, and my husband and I in our 50s.
I warned my parents (who asked us to bring it) - this game is about being REALLY offensive - if you are going to be offended by some of the HORRIBLE jokes that are created, it is not the game for you.
Apparently, its the game for a lot of people. Its REALLY popular, even with the pedophilia jokes.
The game just brings out the most evil nature in everyone.
‘‘A surefire guarantee to get laid.’’
My response?
Pre-teens.
I didn’t even win.
The winner was
An ether-soaked rag.
I think part of the fun of that game is that no matter how outrageous or offensive your response, nobody is ever really the butt of the joke (except maybe Sean Penn or Trump or some public caricature.) Both responses implied horrible things about the actor, not the victims.
I don’t think I could get offended at a particular joke, unless it became explicitly personal. Whether intentional or not, if it hit home in a way designed specifically at me, it’d upset me. Otherwise, for myself, nothing is sacred and is fair game for levity.
Offensive humor, like insult humor or the kind you find in Cards Against Humanity, take a certain kind of self-awareness. Most know the funny resides on a level above the actual (in a meta sort of way), and is in some sense making fun of the mind-set of those actually setting out to offend and their perspective on people, events, and society. It’s an implicit in-joke of knowing it’s bad, but everyone knows no one means it.
Bill Burr’s Philly rant is a perfect example of how it never really became personal. It got very close to home, in that is was regional, but it never singled anyone one out and said, “YOU! You’re fucking laughable!” I’m sure some took it personally, but he never made it explicitly so. And that makes a huge difference. Plus, it was inspired on an improvisational level.
Absolutely. It’s not the joke, it’s who is telling it – on themselves? Or on a class of people for whom they have contempt? Makes kind of a difference.
In my experience, feminists often have quite a sense of humor, although it can be rather black.
My mother was known to joke about her breast cancer, and I’ve heard some wisecracks from other survivors, as well. But I, considered by some to be both insensitive and crude, could never make a joke about it.
OTOH if I should ever have cancer, I’m sure I’ll come up with a lot of material about it.
Back in the heyday of Usenet, there was a jokes forum, where an entrenched tradition about offensive jokes prevailed: It was accepted to make offensive jokes, but you had to announce first that the joke was offensive to ______________ (blacks, women, Jews, Italians, whatever), and then the actual joke itself was ROT13’ed, the early-day equivalent of spoiler-tagging.
You’re right, that really is what you said. Sorry I called you out – I definitely misread your earlier post.
So, has anyone here said that there are topics that are never appropriate to joke about? We have examples of breast cancer (hilarious!), rape with an ether-soaked rag (ha ha!), pedophilia (snerk!), mother dying (ho ho ho!), Hitler (hee hee!) and so on, that all can be joked about in the right context, told by the right people, at the right time.
Is anyone disagreeing with that? I can’t find it here.
I have to quibble with your statement that the game is about being offensive. You’re of course not completely wrong, but you’re also not completely right. It can be about being offensive, but it can also not be. If you pick cards you think are funny, and you don’t find offensive jokes funny (you’ll probably want to remove 90% of the white cards though) it won’t be. And if you play to win, and the card czar, the one who will decide this point, doesn’t find offensive jokes funny it won’t be.
In fact, if you play to win, reading your audience is essential, albeit sometimes difficult. Just as with offensive jokes.
I’ve definitely seen the “rape is never funny” claim on Facebook and elsewhere, multiple times. Not here though. So some people do make that claim. Interestingly enough, it’s never “murder is never funny” or “war/genocide/beatings/torture are never funny”. Those are classic gallows humor fodder. But racism, sexism and rape are worse than murder to some people I guess. Oh, and it’s never mentioned explicitly, but it’s always rape of women that is off limits. Prison rape jokes about Bubba and dropping the soap are a riot for the whole family.
YES! This sums up my feelings on the subject. If everyone is in the loop that this meta level is in play, there’s no problem. When people don’t see that meta level and misunderstand the intent, there’s a problem. Or if it simply hits too close to personal (e.g. the dead baby joke example).
I can’t imagine a joke that would make me truly offended if I know it’s a joke. And some of my favorites are truly, truly in poor taste.
I lost a not-close-friend-but-friendly-work-colleague on 9/11, and still laughed at Gilbert Gottfried’s “too-soon” joke:
“I have to leave early tonight, I have a flight to California. I can’t get a direct flight — they said I have to stop at the Empire State Building first.”
Would I still have done so if it was a close friend or family member? not sure I would have laughed, but I don’t think I would have been offended.
One of my favorite jokes of all time is a pedophilia/child murder joke, but I wouldn’t tell it without a warning, since you never know who might be affected by such things.
It’s the one that goes: " A pedophile and a little kid are walking in the woods at night. The kid says, ‘I’m scared’. The pedophile says, ‘You’re scared? I have to walk back alone!’ "
If you have to remove 90% of the pieces to make the game work, then you are not playing that game - and I would suggest Apples to Apples. Which is the same game without any cards at all that reference your parents having sex.
Admittedly, dark humor is a coping mechanism for me when I’m stressed or sad, but I also sometimes (OK, frequently) lack the “you probably shouldn’t say that right now” filter.