Game theory does not say that irrational behaviour will take over. The particular set of rules that the author assumes leads the interrogator to continue to torture prisoners who don’t know anything because the author assumes that the interrogators has no idea whether or not the prisoner knows anything. You see how those assumptions inevitably lead to the projected result? Change the assumptions and the result changes as well. Welcome to game theory.
It points to real anecdotes that say that 7 out of 39 prisoners subjected to torture produced no intelligence. Great, now what about the other 32?
in post 170, this is the what I say:
"So of COURSE torture works. It’s not a silver bullet that produces the equivalent of a vulcan mind meld but it works. The question isn’t whether it works. The question is whether we are doing more damage to ourselves than its worth. "
Anecdote and opinion is just that. I mean seriously, in what way is torture less likely to getting the truth from a terrorist than asking nicely?
Wait, you mean we haven’t been arguing about the statement “torture doesn’t work” instead we have been arguing about my statement first made on the 4th page of a thread titled “torture doesn’t work” ???:rolleyes: That’s cute.
Yeah right, those pussy Navy SEALS are just giving up information they are told not to give up because they are big fat wet pussies. It got so bad that they stopped torturing them because it was so fucking bad for morale when they universally gave up in the face of torture. You’ve shown NOTHING about SERE training except that you want to dismiss this dispositive evidence that torture works because it proves beyond doubt that torture works.
So 7 out of 39 didn’t produce intelligence, what about the other 32?
I agree that torture cannot extract information from someone that doesn’t have any. I don’t think that is controversial. Your arguments are bordering on “torture doesn’t work because people will confess to the assassinating Lincoln if you torture them” Its irrelevant. The ONLY relevant thing in determining whether to not torture works is whether or not it can extract information. And it CLEARLY can even, baised senate reports notwithstanding.
Are terrorist organizations led by people like Ken Lay who are in charge and yet still don’t know anything? It beggars belief. If your argument relies on assumption like “people who lead terrorist organizations might not know anything” then I’m not sure that there is a debate to be had with you.
Well, if I owned block of land in Atlantic City, on ritzy Park Place or the Boardwalk, i sure as hell would sell it for more than $400. But that happens hundreds of times a day here in America- because it’s a fucking game.
Yeah, so many decades of criticism later, he says that torture was a bad idea. So what. He is not saying that the torture didn’t work, he is monday morning quarterbacking a quarter back that won the game (even if they lost the season). They effectively used torture to find the leaders of the FLN, right? So then torture works. Where should I drop my mike, I don’t want it to land on any egos and shatter them.
What real life experiment? Maybe you don;t know what experiment means. I mean you seem to dismiss something that is as well documented and consistently applied with consistent results as SERE training and you think that the few pages we can read from a largely redacted and classified one sided report is a real life experiment? WTF?!?!?
How did SERE fail in real life again?
The torture wasn’t of the guy who had is balls mailed separately from his corpse, the torture was of his family member. If I kill your kid and threaten to kill your other kids if you don’t tell me what I want, I am torturing you and I am using your kids to do it.
Do you even know what the phrase the exception that proves the rule means? The fact that there are exceptions does not support the validity of the rule. Exceptions do not “prove rules” in the way that you mean. The fact that something is characterized as an exception tells you what the rule is.
We already know that you were ignorant even of how serious game theory is taken in academia, and also an ignorant about what the ones you cited do think about torture nowadays.
So piffle to your sorry idea about who is not learning.
That’s a retarded analogy. You really think these guys don’t give a shit about trying to resist the torture and just give up after a few minutes because… well why the fuck not, its just a military training exercise, its not real life? No, obviously the answer is that these Navy SEALS are just big fat pussies who cannot resist torture that doesn’t even work. Frikking pussies.
I suppose you’ll tell us next that a CEO doesn’t know anything particular about his company, or that a sports-team owner doesn’t know anything particular about his sports team.
Yes given the parameters that were assumed by that author. Are you seriously going to ignore the fact that the article relies on the assumption that the interrogator does not know whether the prisoner knows anything or whether the prisoner is likely to buckle under torture?
It was never confirmed. They try to shoehorn their model into the senate intelligence committee report but that report worthless as we both know because it was the product of only one side of the debate.
Politifact is just opinion, mostly based on the opinion of people who say that torture doesn’t work.
What??? Did you get any sleep last night?
???
Remind me what the cite said. Because I am pretty sure that whatever it is you cite is probably bullshit.
Many models can not confirm individual situations, they are based on average or likely scenarios. This actually shows more ignorance on your part.
And this shows that I was correct, you have still not read why they did agree with Clinton that torture did not generate as much information as the tortures claimed it did.
Was then on a cell phone, and you are still wrong as usual.
No wonder, the ones that do not like to use logic are ignorant of the very similar tactics used to support the conspiracy theories that they are going for.
No, that is not quoted because I think you are a 911 truther, the point here is that you are using SERE like the truters use thermite. And then endless questions based on a tool where the torturers do know all before torturing. A tool that was already reported that it does not work in real life, just like thermite in the quatities needed in the WTC towers.
This is bullshit as I already cited that. No need to show to others again that it was demonstrated in this thread before that you are the one not paying attention about who you did cite early and the reply I made to that. The bullshit there is that you continue to act like if you are paying attention; you are not, not to the evidence. Finding that you missed that it was the same guy that you claimed supported you the same that said later that “Torture does not work” is enough for me to say that you are wrong once again; and you are not convincing anyone as you only show that you are willfully ignoring cites.
You really have no fucking idea what you are talking when it comes to game theory, do you? Its just something that you think supports your position so you are going to ride that lame horse into the ground because some professor political science professor published an article about game theory in a political science magazine. WTF?
The article on game theory not only doesn’t prove anything as a factual matter (after all its all just assumptions about what would happen give certain assumptions) it is based on really bad assumptions. It is assuming that we are resorting to torturing prisoners without knowing if the prisoner knows anything or not.
Wait. What?!?!?! You think the average likely scenario where we use torture is when we don’t know if the prisoner knows anything or not? If that is what we are doing, then we are doing it wrong.
WTF are you talking about its a one page fucking citation of opinions and the senate intelligence report. It is an opinion based on other opinions. There are no studies or statistics cited. The only statistic cited in this entire fucking debate is the fact that 100% of those pussy ass navy SEALS give up information when they are tortured for a few minutes. Oh yeah, I forgot those loosey goosey navy seals think its like a game of monopoly.:rolleyes:
One just needs to point out that nowhere do you deal with why he or others that reviewed him are wrong. And other groups and organizations that looked at his and other’s research shows that it is mostly you the one that just goes for ignorance and lame arguments.
Like ScienceDaily:
And he has been interviewed too in places like Slate Magazine, where our own The Bad Astronomer contributes.
Oh OK, because you were making less sense than usual.
How is that analogous at all? We have actual people (navy SEALS) being tortured for information and they fucking give it up in a matter of MINUTES. Its one of the few verifiable FACTS that have been presented in this thread. You on the other hand have presented theories, opinions and anecdotes.
I was right, your cite IS bullshit.
We can only do this so many more times where I present you with facts and you respond with anecdotes and opinions. I think anyone that was not predisposed to believing anything that would support an argument against torture realized pages and pages ago that torture in fact works but they still would not support it.
You think that those assumptions are representative of the situations when we might use torture. If we are actually using torture on people when we have no idea whether they know anything or not then we are doing it wrong.
Like I said, it is not my problem that you are relying on arguments from ignorance.
I have learned a long time ago that climate change deniers never seen to learn why climate computer models can do well when looking at long range forecasts and average climate in a region, but they can not do a good job of predicting when in a month or week an specific hurricane is coming to shore. In the case of the torture models the runs of the model pointed at the mechanism of why torturers in general would fall for wider and harsher torture.
Indeed, you are still ignorant that there are many differences between SERE training and real life.
As Dr. Ogrisseg noted, your SERE talking point was as valid as termite was for the 9/11 truters.
So much for your “lack of support” for it.
In any case you are still wrong.
BTW I did not use the same SERE cite to show before that it was not effective in real life, the reality is that I already cited others reporting how SERE was not effective. So take your accusations of me not making them before back.
What “runs” are you talking about? The only well documented "runs are things like the SERE training results. Nothing else even comes close.
That is one of the stupidest fucking arguments we run into in the "does torture work debate. Torture doesn’t work because it works 100% of the time!!! WTF??? What you are really saying is that torture might get you false confession or wrong information from someone that doesn’t know anything.
The author in this article is not arguing that waterboarding doesn’t work, he is arguing that waterboarding is torture despite the fact that we do it to our own troops. He notes the differences between SERE training’s controlled environment with real world waterboarding to show why waterboarding is so much worse and less humane that waterboarding during a training exercise. I agree.
The only reference to the efficacy of torture is a general anti-torture sentiment that runs through this article about why waterboarding is torture (particularly the retarded notion that because torture can extract false confession it is not reliable) and this weird sentence: “Indeed, Ogrisseg himself notes when questions that waterboarding would not be a means of obtaining reliable information.”
Nothing in that article indicates that torture would be ineffective in getting information from someone that actually knows something.
If we are going to randomly torture people without having any idea of whether or not they know anything then sure, torture is a weak interrogation tool because it creates a lot of background noise from people who don’t know anything saying something… anything… to make the torture stop. And in that case the parameters of the scheimann’s game may be met and we can probably expect something approaching his predictions. If our torture program actually works this way then we are doing it wrong.
:rolleyes: That’s cute.