Torture Hypothetical (Logic Not Adqeuate For Real Life Situations).

This board has played host to several debates on torture. Typically, the OP presents a situation and asks “Would you torture in this scenario?” Respondents fall on a spectrum. Some answer resoundingly “Yes!” Others grudgingly give their assent, couching it in caveats such as “Only if there was no other way…” Others again state unequivocally “No!” And there are yet more posters in between these generalised positions.

I am interested only in exploring the perspectives of those who have gone on record here as saying that torture is never, ever acceptable. It is my contention that the question of torture can be phrased in terms which would awaken the Grand Inquisitor in all of us. It is also my contention that those who refuse, even hypothetically, to commit torture in the face of ticking nuclear time bombs and armies of homicidal spree killers suffer from a moral defect. They are, objectively, less moral than the rest of us because they are unable or unwilling to weigh the costs of one isolated incidence of torture against its benefits.

Let’s put this in more concrete terms. Consider the following scenario.

You have in your custody a man. This man is a genius among geniuses, possessed of an intellect beyond comprehension. Unfortunately for us, he is also utterly evil. He has, for his own amusement, created a highly infectious virus with a 95% mortality rate. He has weaponised this virus. A quantity sufficient to kill 95% of the people on this planet has been attached to a specially designed explosive device. Here is what you know about the device:[ul]
[li] Unless found and defused, it will explode at 12:00am EST on March 1st 2008.[/li][li] If it does explode, the virus will become airborne. This is the point of no return. If the virus becomes airborne it will spread quickly throughout the population, killing 95% of those it infects.[/ul][/li]
You know these things because the man has told you freely. You have this man in custody because, after planting the device, he turned himself in. He wants to take credit for the Armageddon he plans to unleash.

The virus is so effective that it doesn’t really matter where the explosive device is located. Once the device goes off, it will be impossible to stop the spread of the virus throughout the population.

The only way to get the location of the explosive device is to elicit that information from your captive. He does not want to give it up, and is prepared to undergo quite a bit of serious pain to protect his secret.

Do you, in this situation, torture the captive?

Before answering this question, please read the following list of caveats and constraints which apply to this scenario.[ul]
[li] The virus has no cure. None at all.[/li][li] The virus kills painfully. Death takes about a week.[/li][li] The virus is so sophisticated that it would take the greatest medical minds on the planet, operating in concert with every penny of the global economy devoted to their efforts, several years to invent a cure or vaccine. [/li][li] The captive is entirely 100% responsible for this situation. He worked entirely alone, confided in no-one, paid for all his equipment in cash under various aliases all over the world and, when the purchase of any necessary equipment opened him up to the slightest possible risk of detection, he built the equipment himself. This man, like Keyzer Soze, has no people who can betray him.[/li][li] The captive cannot be bribed, bullied, or browbeaten. He has no friends, family, or material allegiances. He has no conscience and doesn’t want one. You cannot blackmail him. You cannot trick him. Standard interrogation techniques (Good cop/bad cop etc…) have already been tried and have failed.[/li][li] There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever about the guilt of the captive. Whatever proof you require, you have it. There is more doubt about Heliocentrism than there is about the absolute and unequivocal guilt of your captive.[/li][li] The captive never, ever lies. Ever. He simply does not do it. He responds to all questions quickly and directly, and never with anything less than the absolute and unvarnished truth. When asked about the location of the device he simply replies “I refuse to tell you”. [/li][li] Each of these conditions and constraints is inflexible and, for the purposes of this thread, cannot be contradicted, ignored, or even questioned. They are as certain as the most immutable laws of the universe. [/ul][/li]
Now please read my response to some foreseeable questions. Think of this bit as a torture FAQ.

Q) Why have you started this thread. There is another on the front page discussing this topic. You can read it here

A) *That is true. Unfortunately, that other thread quickly degenerated into a total fucking mess as nitpickers focussed on irrelevancies, drive-by posters took the piss, and certain posters who have previously gone on record as saying they would be opposed to torture under any conceivable circumstances performed contortions worthy of the Cirque De Soleil in order to avoid answering what is, at heart, a simple ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ question.

I started this thread as a ‘do-over’ of the one linked above. I wanted to set out the hypothetical so that there was no danger of ambiguity and I wanted to direct my question specifically to those posters who have gone on record as saying they would never, ever torture. Those posters include (but are not limited to) Cervaise, Der Trihs, and Baldwin. I wanted to address these posters (and all who concur with them) because I think their beliefs concerning torture are unethical while they would argue that their beliefs concerning torture are ethical. I would like them to consider my hypothetical, I would like them to answer and, if they state that they would still not torture the captive, I would like to explore the reasoning which leads them to that decision.*

Q) Why so many caveats?

A) Because they were all raised in the linked thread above started by The Controvert. Incidentally, this thread was borne out of my frustration over the amount of caveats posters were raising in The Controvert’s thread. I felt that they were tapdancing around the obvious ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ question at the heart of his OP and choosing to avoid the responsibility of answering by nitpicking at irrelevancies such as the difficulty of ascertaining the captive’s guilt. Obviously, in the real world, the captive’s guilt is a foremost concern. However, in simple thought experiments like The Controvert’s or my own, their guilt is not a concern. They are guilty because we say they are and they’re our hypotheticals so either suck it up and play along or don’t bother answering.

Q) Your hypothetical is unrealistic.

A) *You don’t say. I don’t care that it’s unrealistic. I’ve never come across that thought experiment that wasn’t unrealistic. The important thing about this hypothetical is not its verisimilitude, it’s the fact that its boundaries are clearly delineated. The question is simple and the terms of the question are unambiguous. *

Q) Your hypothetical doesn’t prove anything about the efficacy or morality of torture in the real world.

A) Absolutely. It’s not meant to. It is only meant as a tool to explore the perspective of those posters who have gone on record as saying that they would oppose torture no matter what the scenario.
I think that covers just about everything. To summarise, your options are:

A) Torture, and save hundreds of millions of lives.

B) Make the decision not to torture, and by doing so consign hundreds of millions of people to certain death.

I sincerely look forward to reading some responses.

Seriously? Again? I’ll repeat what I said in the last version of this nonsense topic.

Just because you can construct a hypothetical scenario where you can justify having sex with your mother, doesn’t mean that incest is right or moral.

You’re fooling yourself if you think you’re “trapping” any of the no torture crowd by starting a dishonest thread like this one.

Wasn’t there some infamous thread on this board based around a ridiculously contrived and convoluted hypothetical studded to the gills with hand-forcing choice-blockers created solely to force people to agree “Yes, I would make horrible decision X”? I can’t remember what it was; I think maybe it involved killing one’s children because of a burning car, or maybe that was another thread.

Anyway, in direct response to the OP, how confident can we be that torturing this man will cause him to break and reveal the requisite information, allowing us to save the world? I mean, I have certain expectations about such things based on my experiences with the real world, but those expectations also lead me to a whole line of beliefs which contradict explicit premises of the OP. Everything I believed is shaken once the OP’s situation obtains; I have to start nearly fresh on my understanding of the way the world works. It would not be fair to say “Don’t you think the man will eventually break under torture? I mean, that’s what you’d think would happen to a normal guy” because, well, he clearly isn’t a normal guy.

All you’re arguing against here is the concept of deontological ethics.

You can’t ever argue a deontologist out of his position by reference to consequences of an action. To do so is to miss the point of deontology.

Here, read this, it should help: Deontology - Wikipedia

But even non-deontologists can simply argue that you’ve re-defined the word “human” in the argument “One should not torture humans.” Bound up in the concept of what it is to be human is fallibility–both of our knowledge and our ability to not tell a lie. You’ve negated both possibilities through your definitional fiat, so arguably your hypothetical doesn’t even address torture of what most people would consider humans (by humans).

To continue this, let’s suppose you do toss in as an explicit premise “You know that torturing him will save the world”. Well, great. Now rather than verging on it, you’ve taken this all the way to “You get to sit idle and watch as all of Asia burns to death in a slow fire, or you can push button A, averting the fire and curing cancer, but via a complex method involving the rape of your mother. So, what’ll it be? Oh, I see… And yet you claim to be against the raping of mothers”.

I mean, you’ve acknowledged all over the place the contrivedness of your OP, but acknowledgement is not the same as absolution. It’s still ridiculous. You will have demonstrated hardly anything except that people want to say this or that response. (And this will tell you hardly anything about how they actually would feel, placed in this situation, I think we can agree. What people say and what people do can differ greatly, the moreso when the situation under discussion is so drastically removed from anything in the experience of the entire history of the world)

And Mosier nails it in one.

I guess extreme conservatives do realize that if there was any real separation of powers and justice that then the current administration would be in trouble for admitting using torture. It is then important to convince themselves that they are still capable of defending the indefensible. The torture item is by far the best evidence why history will call this administration a criminal one.

Sadly there are many enablers in government of this state of affairs.

I am completely 100% confident that in real life you will never have a situation so conveniently set up to justify torture. Not even close, in fact. (The OP presupposes you have all sorts of certain knowledge that you could never realistically have.)

By using such completely unrealistic scenarios to convince themselves that torture is “sometimes acceptable”, people set themselves up to fall down a slippery slope of thinking that torture is actually justified in some situations that could occur in real life.

By disregarding such ludicrous hypothetical situations and declaring that torture is “always unacceptable”, I avoid those pitfalls. I’d rather have a moral code that leads me to make the right choice in realistic situations than one which leads me to make the “right” choice in impossible hypothetical ones.

In fact, I’d argue that the reason people (including myself) make statements like “Doing X is always morally wrong” is because our moral code developed to cope with a world in which you can never realistically know “Unless I do X the world will come to an end.” If we lived in a world where we could accurately foresee the outcomes of all possible actions, our sense of right and wrong might well be quite different.

But to reiterate my point above:
I see no reason to abandon my sense of morality in favor of one more suited to an imaginary world than to the real one.

[QUOTE=George Kaplin]
[ul]
[li] There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever about the guilt of the captive. Whatever proof you require, you have it. There is more doubt about Heliocentrism than there is about the absolute and unequivocal guilt of your captive.[/li][li] The captive never, ever lies. Ever. He simply does not do it. He responds to all questions quickly and directly, and never with anything less than the absolute and unvarnished truth. When asked about the location of the device he simply replies “I refuse to tell you”. [/ul][/li][/QUOTE]

To me, these hypotheticals are the downfalls of the scenario as they assume a certain omniscience that is impossible. The rest of the scenario is just window dressing, cranking up to 11 the purported benefit from the torture if it is successful (which is again something that we cannot know without the omniscience of your hypothetical world).

You ask us not to fight the hypothetical, and assume an utterly unrealistic state of knowledge, but what you’re really asking is: “If pigs really, truly had wings, couldn’t they fly then?” Even if someone answers “yes, pigs could fly if they had wings,” it has no relevance to the real world where pigs don’t have wings.

The problem with torture is that the torturer never knows whether the victim is guilty, whether the victim is will give truthful information under torture, or what harm the torture, if successful, will avoid.

It shows the weakness of the argument for torture that proponents always have to resort to vanishingly rare – to the extent they even exist – “ticking time bomb” scenarios to convince skeptics that there might just possibly be a situation where torture is appropriate. There isn’t.

The solution involves giant squid.

I say, in this case, the solution involves finding where the gentleman has been, tracking down the bomb, and defusing it. We know who did it, so the rest is simple detective work. Geez.

As I said in the last thread, “Torture is never justified”.

Except by tortured hypothetical.

Absolutely.

George Kaplin,

You state that torturing this man will save hundreds of millions of lives.
Why did you choose this number?
Would you use torture?
Would it matter if you could only save millions of lives?
Would it matter if you could only save one life?
Would it matter if you could save the entire planet?
If the madman wanted you to kill your family, would you do it?
If the madman wanted you to kill all the first-born children in the US, would you do it?

As for your ‘scenario’, presumably you are discounting the fact that the Government that finds this will promptly store it, research an antidote and then use it in germ warfare (see ‘smallpox’.

Ohhh, alright then. A bit.

Not only have you concocted the least plausible scenario in the history of the torture debate, you’ve redefined torture itself.

I have a mental picture of a magic wand with the word “torture” printed on it. Would you wave this magic wand, and save hundreds of millions of lives, or make the decision not to wave it, and by doing so consign hundreds of millions of people to certain death?

First of all, this thread would never have been written if so many people hadn’t so gleefully shat all over The Controvert’s virtually identical thread. I thought The Controvert asked an interesting question and I didn’t appreciate it being ignored. That’s why this thread exists.

Secondly, this thread isn’t intended to establish the moral status of torture. I think it’s quite obvious that the moral status of torture is situational. Torturing someone over a parking ticket is obviously inhumane, but torturing someone for information which could conceivably save thousands of lives is arguably less so.

This thread is not concerned with torture per se as much as it is concerned with the ethics of those who would rule out torture in every conceivable circumstance. I would like to know what guides people to such conclusions.

Who’s trapping anyone? If no-one comes forward to admit that, even in the situation I presented, they would refrain from torture, I haven’t got a thread. The point of this thread is to explore the kind of reasoning which would lead one to eschew torture even in this situation.

Besides, you haven’t answered my question: In the scenario presented in the OP, would you torture? Yes or No.

A billion percent confident.

I don’t think you would need to start nearly fresh on your understanding of the way the world works. As far as I’m concerned, the only things you need to know in order to answer my hypothetical are:

A) The definition of the word ‘Torture’.
B) The consequences of torturing the captive (millions of lives saved).
C) The consequences of not torturing the captive (millions of lives lost).

If you’re aware of these three things then it becomes a simple ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ question.

That may very well be. However, because everyone seems so resolutely determined to avoid giving a ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ answer, I have no way of proving that those who would oppose torture in the situation outlined in my OP are relying on deontological ethics to guide their decisions. For all I know, it may well be that they believe that there is something so intrinsically damaging about torture that it will always have worse utilitarian consequences than the crime torture is supposed to prevent.

Also, thanks for the link. A very interesting article.

Well, if no-one is willing to say that they would be opposed to torture in this instance, I would have demonstrated two things:

  1. The question of torture can indeed be phrased in terms which would bring out the Grand Inquisitor in all of us, and consequently it’s disingenuous to condemn people for advocating torture in less clear cut scenario’s on the basis that “It’s torture and torture is wrong”.
  2. I would have demonstrated that people are more naturally inclined to evaluate moral decisions in utilitarian terms rather than deontological terms.

I think those two things are quite interesting.

On the other hand, if someone does come forward to say “I would not torture in this scenario” well, then we have a debate. I don’t care about the legality or moral correctness of torture. Couldn’t give a toss. It is so blindingly obvious to me that torturing the captive in the OP is the right thing to do that I simply cannot understand the perspective of those who would answer differently. Yet I know such people exist because I’ve seen them post on these very boards. This thread is intended to explore their ethical perspectives in order to facilitate some sort of understanding in this traditionally polarising debate.

As ludicrous as my OP is, tim, it is a moral question. It should be answerable by recourse to your own ethical intuitions. If you understand the words I’ve used, you ought to have at least a hunch, one way or the other. I’d be keen to know which way your gut is pulling you. I’d also be keen, if it transpires that your head agrees with your heart, to understand the reasoning which would lead you to eschew torture even in this outlandish and ridiculously black & white situation. This question isn’t about torture as much as it is about the ethical framework which would lead you to, among other things, an opposition to torture in even the direst of circumstances. You can refuse to answer this question if you wish, but you can’t pretend it’s because your ethics simply cannot address the situation presented. That’s just a cop out, and frankly, it’s less believable that the hypothetical in my OP.

As I said above, I’m not interested in the ethics of torture as much as I am in the ethical systems of people who would oppose torture in all situations. I’m interested to know how they evaluate other moral questions and in the solidity of the reasoning which has led them to their conclusions. I myself am staunchly opposed to torture in all but the most profoundly ridiculous scenario’s. Still, as a utilitarian, I am easily able to confront such bizarre hypothetical situations head on and answer them on their own terms by simply weighing up the costs & benefits of each course of action available to me. To me, this is the most logical way to make a moral decision & any answer which would deviate from the obvious “Yes, I would torture in this situation” is likely to be the product of ethical reasoning which is alien to me, and which I would like to learn more about.

Not an option.

At random.

Yes, even though I am opposed to torture in more realistic scenario’s, I would use torture in this one.

No. I would still torture.

I would not torture in that instance. Doing so would set a precedent for torture which could result in the premature deaths of more than one innocent person.

Yes. The more people I would save by torturing the obviously guilty party responsible for endangering them, the more likely I would be to resort to torture.

In return for the world? Yes, because they’d die anyway if I refused.

See above. I probably wouldn’t be too pleased with myself, but in your hypothetical world I could rest easily knowing I’d done the right thing.

Well, it’s my scenario and as such is susceptible to editing and revision any time I feel like it. For the purposes of this thread let it be known that the first Government to find the disease would destroy it.

Finally! A straightforward answer. Who_Me, thank you for your candour. I would be very interested in knowing how you arrived at this decision. Would you be good enough to briefly explain your reasoning?

How, precisely, have I redefined torture? It’s still hurting people in exchange for information, isn’t it?

I would answer, but being morally defective by the terms of the OP, my answer would count for nothing.

You’ve redefined it as a billion percent effective. You’ve redefined it as something that evil geniuses crave and actively seek, despite it being their only achilles heel. You’ve gone to great lengths to redefine it as the only way in the whole wide world to prevent the worst thing that can possibly happen from happening.

That’s not torture. That’s an absurd form of magic. All your scenario has managed to do is lampoon other “ticking time-bomb” scenarios used in the ongoing torture debate.

If the OP can envision an imaginary form of torture involving an imaginary scenario with imaginary people. am I allowed to imagine an imaginary magic ring that gives me the imaginary power to bring millions of imaginary people back to life?