For reference, here’s an edited Google-Map view of the screwiest intersection in Ann Arbor, where Green Road (from the east) and Dhu Varren Road (from the west) both feed into Nixon Road (running north-south). Believe it or not, this nexus is treated as a single four-way-stop intersection. As you might expect, the rush-hour throughput is abysmal - partly because each car takes a long time to clear the intersection, and partly because there’s often confusion about who’s next.
I drive through this intersection almost every day, and I’m curious about a potential crash scenario. I’m Driver A, approaching from the west on Dhu Varren. Driver B (or Driver C) wants to turn west onto Dhu Varren. Because they are lazy, the final stage of B’s/C’s turn takes them across my lane, right through the space where I’m planning to come to a stop (at the white stop bar on the pavement). Because of tall weeds at the corner, visibility is limited and it’s often not possible to see Driver B/C until I’m quite close to the intersection. I’m aware of this, so I approach ready to stop short of a collision (though deliberately just short) and lay on the horn.
But suppose I wasn’t quite so alert, or I approached my stop bar at the speed of a driver who was unaware of the intricacies of this intersection, and a collision resulted. Who would be held at fault?
I would think the driver who crossed into another vehicle’s lane would be at fault. As long as you first stop at the proper stop line, it’s not a violation to pull ahead enough to see the rest of the intersection. Pulling into the intersection at the wrong time could be a problem, but that doesn’t seem to apply here.
Yeah - if driver A is driving reasonably, approaching the stop line at a reasonable speed but has visibility issues on the N/S road then I can’t see him being at fault at all. If driver C hits driver A behind his stop line then it’s pretty clear he’s in the wrong lane.
If you are stopping at the white line, then driver B/C is encroaching into your lane and would almost certainly be at fault.
The only exception that I can think of off the top of my head is that if driver B/C realized that they were in your lane, said “oh shit!” and slammed on their brakes, and gave you plenty of time to stop, then you would be at fault. Just because they are in your lane doesn’t allow you to just plow into them. It’s the same basic principle as someone pulling into your lane and stopping half a mile ahead on a straight road. You can’t just putter along for that half a mile and slam into them.
Of course, the hard part for driver B/C would be to prove that they gave you enough time to stop if you have limited visibility around that corner.
The key for driver A is whether or not they have enough time to avoid the accident or not. I think driver B/C would probably end up cited for failure to maintain the proper lane either way, but A could also end up cited for failing to stop in time if they had plenty of time to stop.
BTW, I drive through a 4-way intersection every day going to and from work, and one thing that I can tel you for certain is that most people don’t seem to be able to figure out how a 4-way intersection is supposed to work, and this is the normal type of 4-way, not some weird intersection with skewed roads like the OP. Sometimes people go clockwise around the 4-way, sometimes counter-clockwise, sometimes north-south then east-west, and sometimes how they do it changes while I’m sitting there waiting my turn. And then you get the occasional “I have no idea whose turn it is but I think if I stomp on the gas right now I can get across the intersection without getting killed” person too.
There isn’t a fixed correct order at four-way stops, except when vehicles arrive at the very sane moment. But if it’s busy fron multiple directions that won’t really happen. Which makes it simple: just look at the vehicles already stopped, just as you’re coming to your stop. When the last of those has gone, it’s your turn. You don’t need to worry about the order among them.
The heart of the problem is they’re so close they aren’t totally separate. You’ve got two T intersections something like two or three car-lengths apart where for each only the “stem” and one-half of the “crossbar” have stop signs, while the other half of the crossbar has no stop – although it did a second or two previous. That is a very convoluted arrangement – which is likely why it’s problematic to navigate and likely why it’s officially labeled an all way stop.
You could both get cited. The problem is determining liability. In a slightly similar case of a car cutting a corner as a motorcycle pulled up to the line to turn the driver of the car was held responsible for crossing into the lane of traffic that the motorcycle was using. This was at a light, but I don’t know if that matters.
The situation you describe is hardly unique to that location. I’ve seen it happen at garden variety four-way intersections. It seems worst if I’m on a four way street (two lanes each way), in the left lane, and with a line of cars already stopped in the right lane. Perhaps the visibility is a factor there, too; they can’t see through the line of stopped cars and they don’t realize there could be someone in the lane they’re about to cut across.
Yes, because it’s two intersections, each with a three-way stop. Stop signs often say “Four Way Stop” but when it’s a T, it says “All Way”. I don’t know how people treat this intersection in practice but if I were going north on Nixon and stopped at a stop sign for Dhu Varren traffic, then pulled ahead, I would not yield farther up the road to Green traffic who are waiting at a stop sign.
By the way, my dad used to live on Haver Hill Court and I used to drive through there all the time, although it was in 1977 and I have no memory of this particular intersection.
Gee, that’s near my favorite intersection, Nixon and Bluett. The street sign there used to mysteriously disappear until they started putting Bluett on top.
True, but often irrelevant. Police usually have to make judgments based on the damage, as testimony contradicts. For example, A could say “He stopped RIGHT in front of me and I had no chance to stop” while B could say “A had plenty of time to stop.” B would get the citation, because he’s in the position that has to yield right-of-way. This is different from hitting the car in front of you pointed the same direction. Do that, and it’s your ticket, regardless of just about anything else, because the car in the lane in front of you has right of way and is entitled to stop as fast as possible without you slamming into them. That includes them stopping by slamming into something else, I believe.
Of course, if A testified, “Yeah, he was just sitting there and I could have stopped but didn’t,” then A would probably get nicked. So, don’t do that!
How can it be two three way stops? There’s only four streets leading into the center of the picture. If three of those form one three-way stop, then the remaining street can’t be its own three-way stop.
I think you misunderstand the layout of the intersection. I’m having trouble accessing the image I uploaded, so maybe that’s part of the problem? Here’s a Google Map view. There’s four roads leading into the intersection, and each one has one single stop sign; if you look carefully you can see the white stop bar on the pavement at the end of each street. No matter which direction you approach from, you stop once (at your stop sign), and then proceed into/through the intersection without stopping again (unless someone else gets in your way).
In practice, people treat it as a four-way-stop intersection
The exit from my old tract was a three-way akin to the OP’s situation if we ignore the offset street leading in from the right. Our tract exit minor street had a stop sign whereas the main street (1 lane each way, 35mph limit) had no signs and had a left turn pocket for folks doing the Driver B maneuver.
Many of our Driver Bs would grossly cut the corner on the sorta-reasonable assumption that there was very little traffic coming out of our very small tract. Funny, but almost all the corner-cutters didn’t live in our small tract, but rather in the larger one they could get to by short-cutting through ours rather than using the man entrance to theirs a bit farther down the main road. Jerks.
As driver A I nearly got whacked several times before I learned to hug the right curb and stop a car-length back then creep up the rest of the way.
I was pretty sure that any accident occurring on my side of the centerline would be judged to be B’s fault. But I never wanted my car wrecked badly enough to test that theory.
I tried to get the City to install a short island on our street to stop the corner cutting. No dice; they claimed the fire dept. needed it unobstructed to maintain compliance with their turning radius standards.
How can it be two three way stops? There’s only four streets leading into the center of the picture. If three of those form one three-way stop, then the remaining street can’t be its own three-way stop.