Trans Folks In The Military- I Need Help Countering Arguments- And Fast

[busterpickle]

So… this is a tough one. And, as someone with actual military experience, I’ll do my best to provide some accurate information.

When one is forward deployed, things can become scarce. The military has an incredible amount of logistics to make the day-to-day happen but real-life comes into play more often than not. I’ve had packages get redirected to Alaska when I was in the ME, things just go missing never to arrive, empty packages, stolen packages, you name it. These packages were both things I ordered for personal use as well as for repair parts and other supplies.

I can only imagine this problem can become even more profound if one is, and forgive me as I was in the Navy and not Army, at an “outpost” as I have seen some documentaries. These very forward positions do not get replenished very often and seem to be so as an as-need basis by air drops, or the eventual scheduled supply convoy.

Now… where that all matters is that if you join the military, the expectation is that you “will” serve your duty where they put you. This can be a rather cut-and-dry process that all members of the military experience when they get their first set of orders out of boot camp or initial training. You might have put down Hawaii, California, Oregon but if they need you in Afghanistan at some super-forward outpost, that is where the fuck you are going. Period. Whine and moan all you want, prep for Afghanistan, roll out.

If you are trans-gender, and are not taking hormone therapy or did not have surgery I don’t see any of this as an issue. Your day-to-day requirements will be like any other individual. If you require medication, that could be problematic as your supply drop might get destroyed, etc. You might think: “Just send another!” Maybe, but you assume they stockpiled another shipment. Maybe they did, maybe they didn’t. Maybe the ship that was en route that logistics determined would carry that shipment got diverted to a more pressing issue. Maybe the contract for the meds got delayed or the supplier didn’t have them on hand. Basically, imagine anything can go wrong and will in regards to you getting your meds.

I can’t imagine hormone therapy is like taking aspirin or something. Whatever poor soul misses their supply has got to end up out of sorts after that, plus, the intake of the meds when they arrive and readjusting again, ugh. That would have to suck.

And, that is why those who have diabetes may not get forward deployed. True story too. Knew an IT1 who wanted to go to Bahrain, touched down, came back three weeks later as he was a diabetic. Yup.

Any ways, IMO, it wouldn’t be fair to not be available to serve in whatever place you need to be for whatever reason. That means someone(s) have to serve longer or twice to compensate. It sucks when you had planned to leave at a certain time, made plans for rotating back home, only to be extended three months due to no replacement. Blows. It really does.

TL:DR: Trans with no meds, no problem. Trans with meds, problem.

[Gyrate]

Booting out people purely due to their trans status reminds me of when they were booting people out purely due to their sexual orientation…and how that definitely impacted the safety of our troops.

[Mirtha]

@DocCathode

To sum up- I support transgender people in the military. My friend does not. I already got him to concede that there is a biological basis for being trans. He countered with ‘The military won’t let you in with bad teeth. Why should it pay for therapy, hormones, and surgery?’ He was a Marine. So he obviously knows the military better than I. Still, I could swear that argument was brought up and countered here. But, my Google Fu sucks.

I posted this in GD as I anticipate some posters will want to respond from the ‘No trans folks in the military’ side.
Thanks in advance for your help

I can’t think of a counter argument just genuine concern that trans folks will be treated like buffalo soldiers. Ideally no one has to know if someone transitioned.

[DrDeth]

@Whack-a-Mole

…

I would submit that the military has nowhere near a 0.6% transgendered population. The military is kind of a hostile place for transgendered people and I would not think many would choose it…

This is the only sane argument for keeping transgendered people out of the military- they *will *get harrassed, it will be hostile.

That being said, people join the military every day knowing they could die, so perhaps just some additional counseling is the solution.

[Bear_Nenno]

@electronbee

So… this is a tough one. And, as someone with actual military experience, I’ll do my best to provide some accurate information.

When one is forward deployed, things can become scarce. The military has an incredible amount of logistics to make the day-to-day happen but real-life comes into play more often than not. I’ve had packages get redirected to Alaska when I was in the ME, things just go missing never to arrive, empty packages, stolen packages, you name it. These packages were both things I ordered for personal use as well as for repair parts and other supplies.

I can only imagine this problem can become even more profound if one is, and forgive me as I was in the Navy and not Army, at an “outpost” as I have seen some documentaries. These very forward positions do not get replenished very often and seem to be so as an as-need basis by air drops, or the eventual scheduled supply convoy.

Now… where that all matters is that if you join the military, the expectation is that you “will” serve your duty where they put you. This can be a rather cut-and-dry process that all members of the military experience when they get their first set of orders out of boot camp or initial training. You might have put down Hawaii, California, Oregon but if they need you in Afghanistan at some super-forward outpost, that is where the fuck you are going. Period. Whine and moan all you want, prep for Afghanistan, roll out.

If you are trans-gender, and are not taking hormone therapy or did not have surgery I don’t see any of this as an issue. Your day-to-day requirements will be like any other individual. If you require medication, that could be problematic as your supply drop might get destroyed, etc. You might think: “Just send another!” Maybe, but you assume they stockpiled another shipment. Maybe they did, maybe they didn’t. Maybe the ship that was en route that logistics determined would carry that shipment got diverted to a more pressing issue. Maybe the contract for the meds got delayed or the supplier didn’t have them on hand. Basically, imagine anything can go wrong and will in regards to you getting your meds.

I can’t imagine hormone therapy is like taking aspirin or something. Whatever poor soul misses their supply has got to end up out of sorts after that, plus, the intake of the meds when they arrive and readjusting again, ugh. That would have to suck.

And, that is why those who have diabetes may not get forward deployed. True story too. Knew an IT1 who wanted to go to Bahrain, touched down, came back three weeks later as he was a diabetic. Yup.

Any ways, IMO, it wouldn’t be fair to not be available to serve in whatever place you need to be for whatever reason. That means someone(s) have to serve longer or twice to compensate. It sucks when you had planned to leave at a certain time, made plans for rotating back home, only to be extended three months due to no replacement. Blows. It really does.

TL:DR: Trans with no meds, no problem. Trans with meds, problem.

Soldiers are not deployable while transitioning.

[Ronald_Raygun]

@Bear_Nenno

Soldiers are not deployable while transitioning.

Why not?

[Nava]

@DrDeth

This is the only sane argument for keeping transgendered people out of the military- they *will *get harrassed, it will be hostile.

Only, that has actually not been the experience of most trans members of the US military: from what I read and hear in interviews those who got pushback got it from up above, not from other soldiers, and the stuff from up above was due to standing policies rather than to their actual superior’s opinions.

[Gyrate]

@DrDeth

This is the only sane argument for keeping transgendered people out of the military- they *will *get harrassed, it will be hostile.

Which is one of the big reasons previously put forth against integrating black soldiers into regular units and allowing women and homosexuals to serve. And while there have been many who have been hostile to the change, overall it’s been to the benefit to the military and the haters diminish once the new status quo is in place.

[Bear_Nenno]

@Ronald_Raygun

Why not?

Because of the level of medical treatment, care, counseling and monitoring required. The actual amount of treatment required would be unique to each individual, as some people may not desire any surgery or hormone therapy at all. Others might wish to receive several surgeries to go along with their reassignment. A study conducted when Pres. Obama first proposed the idea found that the average soldier would require 238 days of treatment and recovery. Soldiers requiring surgery or recovering from surgery are routinely placed in a nondeployable status. The same goes for soldiers undergoing mental health evaluations/counseling or taking certain prescription drugs. Any or all of these situations would likely apply to a transitioning soldier. I’m not claiming that they have mental health issues, but part of the transition process requires evaluation by a mental health provider who must declare the soldiers is “stable” in his/her new gender. This type of care is not available while deployed. So, even a soldier who doesn’t want any treatment at all would be nondeployable for at least a brief period. The goal at the time was to have the soldier, commander, and medical provider all sit down and figure out the best time for the soldier to take care of everything so as to not interfere with training and mission readiness. All of this is a moot point at the moment, of course, because current policy outright precludes gender reassignment.

[Walmarticus]

@electronbee

TL:DR: Trans with no meds, no problem. Trans with meds, problem.

There’s plenty of trans people who don’t have constant access to meds already. Like, in civilian life it can be really hard to get treatment anyway. I mean, I just don’t know that it’d actually be harder in Afghanistan than the average transitioning experience at home. Maybe an exaggeration.

Also they’ve lived most of their lives with the ‘default’ hormones. It’s not an unfamiliar experience to them.

[steronz]

The military treats gender dysphoria and gender transitioning like any other medical condition. Yes, there are logistical issues with medication and treatment. Yes, there are issues with deployments during treatment. But there are all kinds of medical conditions that the military is happy to deal with those issues in order to retain good troops.

I’m working with an O-4 right now who has bone cancer. Bone cancer! He had part of one of his leg bones removed, and now walks with a cane. His treatment, IIRC, has lasted nearly a year, during which time he’s needed to be stationed within distance of a medical facility capable of treating him. He’s not been deployable, obviously. I’m sure this treatment has been expensive.

The Air Force has not kicked him out.
That’s my argument to OP’s friend. If he acknowledges that gender dysphoria is a legitimate medical condition in the same vein as bone cancer, then there’s absolutely no reason for that medical condition to be handled any differently. End of story. If he feels that bone cancer should be accommodated and gender dysphoria should not, he needs to reflect on his own prejudices.

[Slash1972]

@steronz

That’s my argument to OP’s friend. If he acknowledges that gender dysphoria is a legitimate medical condition in the same vein as bone cancer, then there’s absolutely no reason for that medical condition to be handled any differently. End of story. If he feels that bone cancer should be accommodated and gender dysphoria should not, he needs to reflect on his own prejudices.

The current anti-argument will be “The military won’t let you enlist if you already have bone cancer. Why should they let you enlist if you already have gender dysphoria?”

[steronz]

@Slash1972

The current anti-argument will be “The military won’t let you enlist if you already have bone cancer. Why should they let you enlist if you already have gender dysphoria?”

Again, there is absolutely no difference between those two scenarios.

The military will not let you join if you’re currently being treated for bone cancer, nor will they let you join if you’re currently being treated for gender dysphoria (prior to the recent change in policy, that is). However, once your treatment is “complete”, neither condition is necessarily a bar from service – it’s up to the opinion of medical professionals. If doctors decide that someone is fit to serve despite having an existing medical condition, then why should one disease be singled out?
See, while trans issues in general can be a murky area, the military policy implemented under Obama was very black and white. It was always a medical decision, with medical treatment, and the only difference is that when treatment was complete a single field in DEERS was changed from M to F or F to M. Many of the issues that transphobes have with transgender people, e.g. changing genders on a fad, or going back and forth, or people picking from “37 genders”, simply don’t apply. And while I have an opinion on the myths and prejudices of transphobes, they can all be conveniently sidestepped in this argument.

[Slash1972]

@steronz

Again, there is absolutely no difference between those two scenarios.

The military will not let you join if you’re currently being treated for bone cancer, nor will they let you join if you’re currently being treated for gender dysphoria (prior to the recent change in policy, that is). However, once your treatment is “complete”, neither condition is necessarily a bar from service – it’s up to the opinion of medical professionals. If doctors decide that someone is fit to serve despite having an existing medical condition, then why should one disease be singled out?
See, while trans issues in general can be a murky area, the military policy implemented under Obama was very black and white. It was always a medical decision, with medical treatment, and the only difference is that when treatment was complete a single field in DEERS was changed from M to F or F to M. Many of the issues that transphobes have with transgender people, e.g. changing genders on a fad, or going back and forth, or people picking from “37 genders”, simply don’t apply. And while I have an opinion on the myths and prejudices of transphobes, they can all be conveniently sidestepped in this argument.

That’s cool with me, but I doubt you’d be so open to the “opinion of medical professionals” if that opinion ended up being “Not fit for military duty”

[steronz]

@Slash1972

That’s cool with me, but I doubt you’d be so open to the “opinion of medical professionals” if that opinion ended up being “Not fit for military duty”

In general I trust the military doctors, they regularly make tough decisions on who’s able to serve and I’ve always seen them do everything they can for their patients. Now, if they start making their “medical opinion” based on prejudice and politics rather than science and necessity, then that’s obviously a problem, but again, I would feel exactly the same way if it came out that a military doctor had a prejudice against bone cancer survivors.

[DrDeth]

@Gyrate

Which is one of the big reasons previously put forth against integrating black soldiers into regular units and allowing women and homosexuals to serve. And while there have been many who have been hostile to the change, overall it’s been to the benefit to the military and the haters diminish once the new status quo is in place.

Which is why I said that we should let them in anyway, altho some extra counseling might not be a bad idea. Do you object to counseling if they are harassed?

[Slash1972]

@steronz

In general I trust the military doctors, they regularly make tough decisions on who’s able to serve and I’ve always seen them do everything they can for their patients. Now, if they start making their “medical opinion” based on prejudice and politics rather than science and necessity, then that’s obviously a problem, but again, I would feel exactly the same way if it came out that a military doctor had a prejudice against bone cancer survivors.

Fair enough.

[DrDeth]

@Nava

Only, that has actually not been the experience of most trans members of the US military: from what I read and hear in interviews those who got pushback got it from up above, not from other soldiers, and the stuff from up above was due to standing policies rather than to their actual superior’s opinions.

Do you object to counseling if they are harassed?

[Gyrate]

@DrDeth

Which is why I said that we should let them in anyway, altho some extra counseling might not be a bad idea. Do you object to counseling if they are harassed?

Why would I object to that? Why would you think I would object to that?

[Nava]

@DrDeth

Do you object to counseling if they are harassed?

No (either for them or for the harassers), but I do object to the assumption that they will be harassed. I find that assumption insulting to those members of the military who would not, do not, harass others.