I don’t know how specifically it works in high school, but for adults to transition and get hormones and everything, they have to go therapy for a while and be able to convince the therapist that they are serious and that there’s not another issue going on. They have to live and dress as their chosen gender. It’s not just that one day Tyler announces that she’s Tina and expects all accommodations to be made immediately. It all takes time. I’m assuming it’s similar for students in high school. It’s not like how Mike Huckabee said he would just declare he was a girl one day so he could stare at girls in the locker room, that would not be allowed.
Also, regardless of this, it’s still against the rules to harass other students. If someone is leering, or making inappropriate comments, or actually assaulting other students, they should get disciplined as needed, whether it’s someone who is trans or cis gender.
What are they motivated by, if not fear? What do they think is going to happen if an individual who identifies as female, but happens to have male genitalia or other physical characteristics, changes with the girls? Why would this be a problem?
I’m fully in favor of transgendered rights, but this is a tough issue.
First, I hope no one is assuming that being transgendered means being gay - i.e. that a male to female transgendered person has no sexual interest in females. Sexual orientation and gender orientation are completely separate issues.
Also, not all transgendered people want or get their genitalia changed. It’s quite common for trans women to have ‘top surgery’ but maintain their other bits - and to still be attracted to men. It all gets very fuzzy. Caitlin Jenner is a trans woman who still has a sexual relationship with her wife. I can see how other women might not want to get naked in front of Caitlin if they know they are an object of sexual attraction.
And having been a teenage boy, if someone who physically looked like a girl changed beside me and got naked when I was, say, 13 years old, that would have been a big deal. And if I had been changing in front of someone who I later found out was biologically female, it might have done some psychological damage.
These are children we are talking about here. Accomodations need to be made - on both sides. hand-waving away real differences by declaring them to be ‘socially constructed heteronormativity’ is not useful. They’re still children, and they are still going to react as children.
I actually agree that after the first few days, the other students wouldn’t care more about Sarah’s penis than Judy’s vulva. Despite what we’ve learned from porn, the locker room is not a very sexual situation.
The problem with transgender students in the school lockers is a creation of the adults, not the kids. Writing as a person who has actually worked professionally with school districts, including the rather large KCMO one, on this exact situation…there are no problems in implementation. The kids get it. After a few minutes of explanation, they really do get it - just because “Jane” has a penis doesn’t mean at all she is interested in using it, nor even interested in showing it explicitly. Probably the most incredible instance involved a case where a dad and mom screaming “OUR DAUGHTER IS OFFENDED AND THREATENED BY THIS BOY IN THEIR LOCKER ROOM!” - and the daughter finally speaks up and says “No one cares, mom. X is a girl. Why are you making a big deal out of this?”
On the subject of transgender students in athletics, that has been dealt with. Generally speaking, I post a link to my research, and the haters post that they refuse to read it, or haven’t read it, or attack my credibility, but whatever it says, they know it’s bullshit, and no don’t ask them to provide a citation… :smack:
These quotes, and the feelings so obviously behind them, are why I have to work so hard to try to fight for civil rights for myself and my people. The misgendering is truly low-class.
This is the problem behind all of your posts in this thread - being transgender is not a “peculiarity”, it’s a gender identity determined by physical changes in the brain, almost always before birth. It’s a “peculiarity” in the same manner that being black, Italian, or female is.
Didn’t we have this very same discussion in another thread? You left out the step of “has the child been to a licensed counselor, working with them for a clinical length of time, and has exhibited a consistent, persistent, and insistent gender identity?” Because that’s what it takes in every school district I’ve worked with or know about.
People can “game” counselors. It’s rare, but it happens. It’s rare enough that I cannot find a case in all the United States over the years where a transgender student diagnosed by a psychologist or psychiatrist faked being transgender to gain access to a high school girls locker room. Can anyone? Or is the fear just imaginary?
That was the mantra of the early to mid-20th century: “black folks should have rights, but they shouldn’t push the white folks too much, or else the white folks’ll get mad, and then we’ll have to lynch a few black folks until they calm down again. Then maybe we’ll talk about some rights.”
To a 13 year old boy, accidentally bumping into a girl is a sexual situation. Accidentally seeing down a girl’s blouse can leave him flustered all day. I don’t think women really understand how sexually driven post-pubescent boys can be.
How many of you commenting about this being no big deal are/were teenaged boys? Una Persson’s example of the girls finding a penis no big deal may be true, but the same isn’t necessary true if a trans boy exposed a vagina and/or breasts to the other boys in a locker room.
Why the assumption that the person with a penis is not sexually interested in girls just because he’s transitioning into a girl himself? Again, sexual orientation and gender orientation are not the same thing. Plenty of trans people are still attracted to their ‘heteronormative’ opposite gender.
In any event, these arguments about it being ‘no big deal’ after everyone gets used to it sounds like it could easily be applied to the notion that we should just get rid of same-sex bathrooms and change rooms and just let all the kids change together, trans or not. Does anyone see a problem with that?
I was a teenage boy once, although quite some time ago. I believe kids can handle it, even with strong hormones raging. I once, at around 15 years old, shared a sauna where there was a naked teenage girl. It was a memorable experience, but everyone behaved themselves and no one was “flustered all day.” These days, I think kids are even more likely to be able to handle a bit of nudity.
I think it would probably be okay. I was uncomfortable changing with naked *guys *when I started having to do it in school. I doubt girls being involved would have been any worse.
Why the focus on sexual orientation? It is not like we segregate based on orientation now. All of the open and closeted gays are there changing with their same sex peers. Seems a bit of a red herring to bring up when discussing transgender issues.
Wow. You really think so? I think putting naked boys and girls together would cause a lot of problems - and probably wouldn’t be very enjoyable for the girls or the boys. You’re putting them into a very vulnerable position - not just because of sexual attraction, but because it’s completely exposing of any flaws, and kids can be merciless. Hell, I hated changing with other boys because they could be incredibly cruel. I can’t imagine what it would be like if naked girls were in the room too.
Some kid laughing at you and saying you have a ‘shrinky dink’ might sting a little when you’re in a room with other boys, but it would be devastating if said in front of the girl you’re sweet on - and she’s looking at it and laughing too. Girls with small chests or who are a bit overweight would suffer the same humiliation. A certain amount of modesty is healthy and protective for kids.
If someone can’t handle themselves appropriately in any locker room, that’s a problem that needs to be addressed by the school.
But millions of gay 13 year old boys manage to change for gym despite being in proximity to people they are potentially attracted to. And somehow the world has yet to end.
People constantly say things like, “You don’t have to be worried about that trans-woman in the locker room, because trans-women aren’t interested in women anyway.” Just pointing out that this isn’t necessarily the case.
As I said, I’m fully in favor of transgendered rights. But I’m also in favor of gun rights, but that doesn’t mean I’d approve if someone waved her firearm around a bunch of nervous people just because she can. I support the right of people to be nude if they want, but if a guy walks into a restaurant fully nude and spreads his legs wide in front of a table with children, at best I’d think he was being a jerk.
We’re not talking about racism here. We’re talking about redefining a very fundamental aspect of humanity. You can’t expect everyone to just psychologically shift and be totally okay with it. Having a right to be who you want to be does not eliminate the need for manners. Nor can you simply erase our mammalian programming with declarations about the ‘social construct’ of heteronormative behavior. Gender is not a social construct - it’s a fundamental aspect of being a mammal. Being decent, thinking people we can understand that some people don’t fit the pattern and are deserving of the same rights as everyone else, but that doesn’t mean we have to accept that gender is meaningless or pretend that it never matters.
Take the idea of trans-women competing in women’s sports. I think that’s generally a crazy idea, since trans-women still have the physical strength and build as men. I don’t think it’s fair to other women to have someone compete against them who has advantages not available to the others. Or if you think there is no gender difference, then get rid of the separation of genders in sport - and be prepared for the consequence that in many sports there won’t be a single woman in the top 100.
We’re not redefining anything. Transgender people have existed since antiquity. The difference is, with respect to Western civilization, instead of crucifying and murdering people like me, we’re trying to mainstream us.
I think that you are conflating sex with gender.
This has been previously addressed at tremendous length. Very, very few people suggest that cisgender men and women compete. The topic at hand is transgender people, and the IOC and other major international sporting bodies already worked this out a decade ago. There’s nothing “crazy” about it.
I can’t speak to the boys’ locker room, but why in the world would you think that girls with small chests or who are overweight are safe from humiliation in a room full of teenage girls? I don’t think it’s possible for anyone to inflict a greater level of of humiliation and cruelty than teenage girls. The fact is that any issue that can be raised in a locker room containing both cisgender and transgender individuals of the same gender (that is, girls and transgender girls, or boys and transgender boys) exists absent the transgender individuals. You do realize that you’re talking here about a boy being humiliated because the person he’s sweet on - who is a transgender boy - sees him naked. How is this different from the gay boy in the locker room who is seen by another boy he likes?
The good news is that, as has been mentioned earlier in the discussion, for the most part the kids seem to be fine with the changing acceptance of transgender individuals. It’s only the adults who grew up under a different standard who seem to fear that something bad will happen if we allow that tiny percentage of individuals who identify as transgender to be fully accepted.
Also, just for the record, Caitlyn Jenner is divorced and absolutely does not have a sexual relationship with her ex-wife, although it is true that some transgender individuals do maintain a relationship with their spouse through their transition.
Seems like this is the crucial bit of data here. I can’t imagine that this girl would have made this request in the first place if she didn’t feel confident that her classmates would be OK with it and that the girl’s locker room would be a safe place for her.
There’s also the possibility that she was more afraid of being forced to use the boy’s lockers than any taunting or abuse she might receive from the other girls.