Trans HS students - access to locker rooms

Great Debates
1

Read this article in the paper this a.m. I had never really thought about this issue before, and thought I’d post a thread, hoping you could help me think through it.

Apparently this HS student identifies as a female, and wants full access to the female locker room. The school’s proposal to allow her a separate changing room was deemed insufficient. Another school district allows transgender students access, but provides an aide to monitor things.

I guess what it comes down to in my opinion, is how do you balance the interests of the transgender individual to be treated equally to the gender they identify with, against the interests of the fellow students (and their parents) who may not wish their minor children to change and shower with individuals having the physical appearance of the other gender. This likely sounds crude and offensive to some, but the idea that a HS girls’ locker room should be a “dicks free zone” does not strike me as horribly unreasonable. And I say this as a reasonably liberal, nonreligious individual. It seems this would impose some burden upon a nontrans teen who is conservative, insecure, and/or bashful.

Of course, things might be far different than when I was in HS in the 70s, and showers were communal. If the locker room has individual showers and changing areas, that would be different.

The article also states that trans students can participate in team sports of the gender they identify with. A different issue. I’m not a big fan of HS sports, but I would imagine at least some instances where a trans athlete might enjoy some physical advantage.

2

Give them full access. This isn’t the 80s where you actually change in front of each other or shower with one another. I never saw anything in the locker room when I went to change.

Not that I really think the “penis-free zone” thing is all that reasonable, but that applies as much to gender segregated restrooms as anything else. The whole thing is based on a heteronormative concept that we now know isn’t valid.

Stop acting like we’re in the 80s and just get proper changing rooms instead of “locker rooms.”

3

I graduated from high school in 2000, and there was still plenty of changing in front of others. I dunno how common it is these days, but it’s not like it hasn’t happened in 30 years.
And as for transgender issues in locker rooms, I think it’s a complicated issue. I am definitely in favor of supporting any transgender students as much as reasonably possible, but there’s other issues to consider here, not only with the reception of that student, but for all the other students as well.

I’ll put this in the context of a similar conversation I was having with a friend about these issues at our gym. For a fully grown adult, they are, or should be, fully aware of where they are in their transition and how they need to accommodate themselves and others around them. I could definitely understand how someone who is just beginning a transition from male to female may want to use the women’s locker room, but should also be aware that a lot of women in there may be alarmed to see someone who is physically still obviously male in there. It’s not unreasonable that they’d be alarmed, and I’d consider it highly inconsiderate for someone in that situation to insist on using the women’s locker room. My solution, in that context, would be to change at home (as many people do anyway) and/or use the solo bathroom to change and any other such needs.

Obviously that situation gets more and more complicated as transition progresses, but it really is about an awareness of the situation, others, and a balance of everyone’s needs. And of the few transgender individuals I know, they were sensitive to those situations in their transitions and took those sorts of accommodations until they’d reached a sufficient point.

Though, obviously, my example isn’t fully applicable, because that’s dealing with a voluntary situation with adults, and gym is a required situation for all students and it’s further complicated by the gender and body image issues of everyone else around. I think it’s probably a reasonable expectation for most people in a women’s/girl’s locker room.

That said, I think the simple solution is to provide some changing stalls, and it probably handles a bunch of situations simultaneously. Not only would it allow a transgender student to change without feeling uncomfortable or being ridiculed herself, but also not alarming other students. Similarly, it would allow other students who have body image issues or simply don’t want to see others changing to be accommodated. Really, it seems like a pretty simply and inexpensive solution.

4

I always thought there was something bizarre about locker rooms in public schools where kids have to get naked in front of each other. I know it’s traditional, mostly it doesn’t seem unusual, but if it wasn’t a common practice imagine the fracas that would ensue if it was newly proposed.

5

I can already see the fraternity pranks, and the ensuing movie on the horizon.

6

I guess I’ve never encountered a locker room - in HS, college, or health clubs - where all changing, etc. was done in private rooms. The most privacy I’ve encountered was where there were private showers, each with a curtained “anteroom” where someone could change. But most people undressed and dressed in front of their locker, where there were rows of lockers separated by benches.

In those locker rooms, the biggest “debate” I encountered was whether or not guys should wrap in a towel going from the locker to the shower and back. But it was definitely the exception for someone to wrap a towel around them and then slip off their shorts, and slip their underwear on while wrapped in a towel.

The only place I’ve seen more privacy is in private golf clubs. Given limited resources, I’m not sure I think our public schools should aspire to resemble private golf clubs. And even there, guys seem to have few qualms about walking around in various stages of undress.

7

My solution:

Provide a third room, doesn’t have to be large. For the trans and those not fearful of them. When it’s fuller than the regular change room (and I believe it very soon will be!) switch them, so the third room is for those who find a trans in their change room unworkable.

Everybody gets what they need. Seems simple enough to me!

8

I think I was 8 or 9 when I first experienced the boys’ bathroom as an unsafe place. The other boys would talk about dicks and shitting and piss, had quite the case of pottymouth on them, and they quickly noticed that I didn’t join in and wasn’t comfortable around them. They’d cluster around me sometimes when I went in, to ask me obscene questions and enjoy making me uncomfortable, and I didn’t much care for their company when I had my pants down to take care of business.

I developed on a different tangent than the trans girls but they don’t belong in a boys’ locker room and they really shouldn’t be singled out and made to change in the pariah weirdo locker room either.

9

oh man, this is getting ridiculous. No, the dude doesn’t get to dictate and harass everybody else who don’t conform to his particular and unusual understanding of gender. And I don’t give a shit if he says he’s a girl – he’s a guy. When he acts in a way that show largeness and empathy with other people’s misgivings about the situation he get the courtesy of being called whatever he wants. Behave like a petty petulant douchebag earns him the prize of being called a dude.

Because Americans have a somewhat fucked up relationship with nudity in general. Was reading a wiki on the proper conduct in the locker room in (American) fitness centres. So much angst. Been in fitness centres in five European countries over the last year or so, and let me tell you this is not the norm in any of those places. Introducing further issues towards an unhealthy body nudity culture in the USA for the purpose of furthering the interests of a tiny miniscule minority is not a well thought out trade off.

That was the solution which was shot down a few weeks ago in a similar case, because the individual didn’t get to have the full experience of being a girl.

10

While your proposal makes sense to me, your use of the word “fearful” suggests some judgment on your part. Not all people uncomfortable with “shared” locker rooms is motivated by fear.

Would a 3d room be sufficient? Or would we need a male to female and female to male rooms?

I think there are some different factors involved given that the students are minors. Not the same as might be in college.

I hate that I keep looking at $$, but our schools’ budgets are already stretched. I’m really hesitant to say any significant resources should be allotted to what I presume is a pretty small minority of students. Yes, diverse people should be accommodated - but within reason.

11

Shouldn’t the first question be what identifying as another gender means in relation to being transgender. Does that just mean some boy says he wants to become a girl? Does it mean he is taking hormones? Does it means he’s fully transitioned? How involved are the parents and doctors in this process? Answers to those thing would go a long way toward determining how much accomodation is necessary.

12

No, what was shot down was a room for the trans student to change in alone. Not what I was proposing. A third room, initially for the trans student and those who support her. When the supporters out number the detractors, switch the rooms. The trans student will still get to change with other girls. Just not the ‘unsupportive’ ones. I’m guessing, in short order the non supportive will find its them being separated out to the third room. As it should be, in my mind, but regardless everybody gets what they need!

13

I think this is similar to a question I asked about transgendered and bathrooms. What sort of safeguards are in place so that someone can’t just self-declared themselves trans to use (or perv in) the other locker room. Now balance this with the needs (rights?) of a true trans-gendered wanting to use appropriate facilities.

14

We can buy new equipment for the chemistry lab and hire another teacher’s aide, or we can build a bunch of changing rooms for every permutation of gender that a fertile imagination can devise. Tough call.

Regards,
Shodan

15

It’s ridiculous to spend tens of thousands of dollars to accommodate special snowflake sexual identities that make up fractions of 1% of the population. If you capitulate to or appease the powerful transgender lobby, soon you’ll be adding restrooms for people identified as “genderqueer”, “genderfluid”, “agender”, and all other absurd beliefs.

Non-binary identified people need to suck it up. Needs of the many > feelings.

16

If trans boys are allowed to use the girls’ locker rooms. what is to stop completely straight/non-trans boys from claiming to be trans just so they can get into the girls’ locker room?

17

She must be running a long con.

18

That moral superiority they claim to have as they beat the shit out of the transgender kids out behind the gym during lunch?

19

So you’re saying just go ahead and let them change in the lady’s side?

20

Right, but wouldn’t they potentially need a 4th room, for those born female but identifying as male?

What troubles me about this sort of issue is abandonment of “reasonableness” in accommodations. When possible, I prefer accommodating individuals/minorities. Sure, minorities need to be protected against the tyranny of the majority. But in some very private issues, I think the majority has a legitimate interest in how far they need to be "protected from " the minority.

Of course, the accommodation isn’t as easy as allowing the student access to a closet/storeroom. It would have to meet all manner of health/safety/ADA requirements. How much per school do you think should be spent constructing how many alternative locker rooms? Where does that money come from? How big should they be? How common of an issue is this? Should it be done in EVERY school, whether or not a specific student is requesting it? And then maintained after that kid graduates, just in the off chance that another student might want it in the future? What staffing do you need to ensure the student’s safety?

A lot of people (myself included) find gender identity issues challenging. As suggested by some of the responses above, I think an unfortunate result of situations such as this might be to cause folk to be more hostile to the entire issue of gender identity than they otherwise might be.

I’m trying to think of any “peculiarity” that I have, that I think ought to be accommodated by the general public. Heck, I’m as hard core nontheist as there is, yet I figure some way to exist despite the countless daily reminders that government fails to accommodate me to the extent I would like.