If it doesn’t matter if someone with a penis is watching you change clothes, then the transgender student can change clothes in the mens’ locker room.
If it’s prudish and small-minded to want to control who sees you in the shower, then the transgender student is being prudish and small-minded to want to use the women’s locker room. It shouldn’t matter.
Regards,
Shodan
As long as people deny that transgender people are actually transgender, There is no way to have this discussion. Both sides can trot out whatever rationalization they want, but that fundamental question is at the core.
What exactly do you believe transgender means? Does everyone (trans as well as not) share the same definition? And what do you understand the implications to be?
I certainly do not deny that transgender people are actually transgender. In my ignorance, however, I perceive that transgender individuals vary among themselves in many respects.
But how many actually will? My son has a diagnosis of a learning disability from a licensed psychologists. When we went to his 504 meeting they (illegally)
We needed to get the district to back us up and luckily they did. The district before that told us that it didn’t matter if we were right or wrong, we needed to sue them to get the teacher to stop insulting my son in class (yes the teacher said “I believe in motivation through humiliation” in front of us and the principal).
So in some schools/districts they will do what they want to do irregardless of psychologist reports.
I saw a poll recently where it was revealed that about 2-4% of kids had views which could be considered “racist,” and 1-3% had views which could be considered “anti-Semitic.” So the question back is, at what point do you accommodate prejudice or fear?
Another issue is “what is the greater good?” Here is where reasonable people will also disagree. Forcing a transgender girl to change in the locker room and use the boy’s bathrooms will often be devastating for her. It was for me, and it is for most (not all) of the kids I work with or talk to. Here’s something else - when I undressed in front of boys for gym, I felt like I was a girl being forced to expose myself to boys, a large, noisy, close group of them. The feeling was horrible. I almost ran away from home several times to avoid it, and even self-harmed to get excuses to miss gym.
So for the few girls who might be uncomfortable, within a large group of their peers to shield them partially, is accommodating their discomfort the better option than sending the transgirl to the boys?
This is sort of a rhetorical question to ask, really.
No.
i fear that you’re conflating my reasoning for qualification for integration into the same-gender population, versus the procedure.
No, you called me a liar without cause and without any apology.
Please. You made a suggestion couched in insults like an 8th-grade debate tyro.
Well true, not all school districts will accept it - until now, when the Obama Administration is threatening Title IX actions for districts which do not comply with accommodating transgender students.
If the issue of trans students prompts a rethinking of sex segregation, so much the better. People should be given enough privacy to shower and change clothes without being on display to people who might have a lewd and prurient interest in seeing them unclothed, yes, but that’s hardly a situation unique to girls with a transgirl around. (I’m pretty sure most transgirls are into boys but yes lesbian transgirls do exist, and probably in significantly greater profusion than these alleged phony transgirls who are really hetero boys who like to look at nekkid girls).
You know, when being told to accommodate some people for whom the status quo isn’t a good arrangement, people should not race towards “Oh but that would not be convenient, it could cause problems, therefore we can’t do it”. They should instead think of an alternative solution. There usually is one.
Comparing anyone who disagrees with you on this topic (or any topic) to segregationists is really an unconvincing, unpleasant tactic. It’s only one step above comparing anyone who disagrees with you to Hitler.
This is true, and it’s at the heart of most of the resistance I encounter in real life.
One thing which I think is missed in this thread is that the current accommodation system is working in most cases. Almost every school district in my metro area has a transgender girl student who is using the women’s bathrooms and lockers. I recently interviewed the attorneys for several of the largest school districts in this area, who agreed unanimously that aside from a few angry e-mails from parents (less than a dozen, in a metro area of 2+ million), the mainstreaming is working.
Not all school districts, not yet, but most of them. And not all schools either, but most of them. My alma mater how has 4 transgender students attending (2 FTM, 2 MTF), and in fact I’m hosting a “summit” next month with their counselors, lawyers, and teachers to help them work towards full accommodation. I’ve even talked to peers of the students at the school - I had a recent talk with several random girls at the school who were sharing their locker room and bathroom with 2 transgender girls. The reactions were refreshing (these are quotes from my interview):
“Who cares. It’s not like anyone is having sex in gym.”
“Transgender people have enough problems. We need to help them.”
“Yeah I was scared at first of (X), but he, I mean she, just is like any other girl. It’s who you are inside.”
“My mom freaked out but my dad has someone at work thats trans and he explained it, and now my mom is kinda cool.”
“Who cares?”
And discrimination couched in “thinking about the children” is really unpleasant. The same tactics were used in the 1950’s and 1960’s, by parents that claimed having black males in close proximity to white girls would lead to a tsunami of inter-racial rapes.
I would really think that the answers to these questions should be self-evident. 96.6 percent of all people are attracted only to the opposite gender. During the high school years, hormones are raging, while self-control and socially appropriate behavior still haven’t been learned, or at least not completely. Boys are inherently more sexual and more aggressive than girls. The result of these biological facts is that girls in high school put up with a lot of inappropriate behavior from boys. Based on this fact, it is entirely understandable that high school girls would not want to be seen naked by boys. It’s also entirely understandable that even if a girl has a private stall and thus wouldn’t actually be seen naked by anyone else in a bathroom or locker room, she wouldn’t want any boys nearby. That would still likely cause her to be uncomfortable.
Yeah, it’s nothing like segregationists, who wanted to supply separate facilities involving plumbing to people based on visible characteristics; you’re just saying that trans kids should have separate facilities involving plumbing based on visible characteristics. You may as well be comparing them to a program that murdered millions of people! Slippery slope and all!
So you think these types of decision’s should be solely based on a doctor’s say so? You realize you cna essentially get a doctor to say anything, right? Would you be okay with a doctor hired by the school simply saying no accommodation is necessary because s/he doesn’t think it is, and having that person’s opinion be the end of the discussion? Of course not.
No, I am saying your very involvement with creating procedures indicates that the process is the real world is more complicated than just consulting a doctor and relying upon what s/he says.
I did not call you a liar. I pointed out how two things you said were clearly at odds.
Really? You started this disccusion by saying:
Which is both false, accusatory, and completely unhelpful. No one asked for your opinion, and they certainly didn’t ask to be lectured by someone who can’t even bother to produce any evidence of their opinion. And in the past occasions where you have, you act as if your data is beyond reproach and critique when it’s clearly not. Get over yourself and show some humility. If you think your are above debating the “haters”, then don’t bother posting.
More importantly though, what is truly telling is that you do not actually want to debate the issue. You just want to shout down whoever doesn’t buy your argument 100% without any exceptions or qualifications. I ask again:
In your mind, do civil rights extend unequivocally to every medical condition? Should every building and residence be required to have a wheelchair ramp or elevator? Should doctors have to operate on people with BIID? Must every accommodation be made for a minority group regardless of their size or the opinions of other people?
Probably very little. Nice strawman, tho.
Considerably more Americans have strongly held religious beliefs, which I personally consider barely (if at all) more legitimate than racism or anti-Semitism, yet such religious beliefs are given extensive protection.
[QUOTE=Una Persson]
No, you called me a liar without cause and without any apology.
[/QUOTE]
This statement is false AFAICT. Could you please either cite where it happened, or withdraw it?
Regards,
Shodan
Good analogy. Since we now know that the only reason to resist sharing school facilities with members of a different race is hatred, fear, and prejudice, we no longer allow segregation in school facilities.
In the same way, we now know that the only reason one would object to showering in front of someone with a penis is hatred, fear, and prejudice, we should no longer allow segregation in showers. Men, women, transmen, transwomen, strangers, teachers, janitors - everyone should and must be allowed in any locker room.
Rosa Parks had a dick - who knew?
Regards,
Shodan
My (limited) experience is in line with most high school students not really being bothered any more than they already are by locker rooms. But I haven’t encountered any studies yet. Do you know of any?
There shouldn’t be sex segregated bathrooms or locker rooms at all. This shouldn’t be an issue, no doctor’s notes should be needed, and people should be allowed to use whichever locker room or bathroom they want, until such time as the dual facilities are phased out and there is only the “bathroom” or “the locker room” and not “the girls/boys bathroom/locker room”.
Since I previously said as much, regarding gaming the system, in the body of a reply to you, it shows you really aren’t actually reading my posts.
Spin it however you feel best.
Hilarious, given the source. You continue to insult me and claim you are not. How’s that tactic working out for your message?