You couldn’t do one in the past, either. So what? What’s new about this?
One obvious difference is that this hypothetical transgender person is uncomfortable because they would be in the wrong restroom (so they’re uncomfortable because of something happening/required to happen to them), while the hypothetical other person is uncomfortable because of someone else near them. But I’m not that interested in “wrong” and “okay” – what matters is what public policy should allow/do, and it should allow all people to use the restroom corresponding to their gender.
Who has yet to consider this? It’s defined by gender, or it should be. It should not be defined by appearance.
Yes, and if this person is lying, that’s bad. But this could already happen in the past – people could lie about their gender. There’s nothing new with this possibility.
How do you know? I’m in favor of ending discrimination, and that includes against transgender people who may not present in a traditional way as one gender or the other or as the gender they identify as.
Who says a woman dresses a certain way?
It still seems pretty easy to me. You haven’t presented any scenarios that are any more difficult than possible scenarios in the past.
Yes, their feelings matter. If someone is assaulting people in the bathroom, or behaving lewdly, or otherwise breaking the law, then I would call the police. If they attacked my family, I would defend them.
If a person with a beard goes into a stall in the ladies room next to my daughter, and does their business, and leaves, without behaving lewdly in any way, then I would not confront them no matter what, and no matter how my daughter feels. I’m not going to confront people for using the bathroom. That doesn’t necessarily make my daughter’s feelings illegitimate, but I’m still not going to confront someone because they used the bathroom.
Again, if they’re not behaving lewdly or breaking the law, or otherwise acting suspiciously (and going to the bathroom to excrete doesn’t count), then I’m never going to confront someone for going to the bathroom, no matter how they appear.
These same possibilities could occur in the past. There is nothing new here, and no new possibilities of uncomfortable feelings. People can lie, and lying is bad, but I’m not going to confront people who aren’t behaving lewdly or otherwise suspiciously just because they go into a bathroom to excrete or wash their hands.
But your policy is based on what is “wrong” or “okay!”
What defines gender?
If not biological sex, or appearance, what?
Is it just a mood?
But gendered bathrooms themselves are a form of discrimination.
That’s my question.
Sure I have. A man walks into the lady’s room. See below.
Don’t dodge the question. If someone who appeared in every way to be a man simply used the restroom, calmly and without behaving badly, and your wife or daughter felt uncomfortable with that, what would you say? Do her feelings matter or not? What about your grandmother? What about a locker room?
But I asked you what you would say to your daughter if she complained to you. What would you say?
If you think we should just get rid of gendered bathrooms altogether, why not just propose that? Why go through all this nonsense of saying it’s wrong to keep transgender people out of the “wrong” room when you don’t even want to keep anyone out?
Again, what if your wife or daughter wants you to do so? What if they confront that person? What do you say?
Why even have gendered restrooms if you don’t enforce them? What’s the point?
OF COURSE there is something new! People of one biological sex can use the restroom of the other one. That’s new. I’m not saying it’s wrong, but it’s damn sure new. And as you’ve demonstrated, it forces you to conclude, if anyone pushes the issue, that we shouldn’t have gendered bathrooms at all - that it is the right of anyone to use any bathroom regardless of sex, appearance, gender, etc. You just said so above by saying you wouldn’t confront anyone who did that (but are still avoiding the question when it comes to others who might disagree.)
Wrong actions, not feelings. Discrimination is wrong and should not be allowed – and discrimination, in this case, means not allowing a person to use the bathroom that corresponds to their gender.
The long answer is more than I will share here (or even know about myself) – there are long university courses and textbooks on gender.
The short answer is that people determine what gender they are.
In the long run hopefully they’ll go out of style. In the present, we have to deal with them as they are, and gendered bathrooms that allow transgender people of the corresponding gender to use them are far less discrimination than gendered bathrooms that do not.
You’ll have to ask someone else, then, since I don’t define a certain way for men or women to dress.
How is this different than a man walking into the lady’s room in the past?
I would say “I’m sorry that you felt uncomfortable”. I wouldn’t confront the person.
Yes, they matter, but that doesn’t require confrontation.
It would depend on what they do in the locker room. Do they behave lewdly or disruptively? Then I might confront them, or call the police. Do they just go into a bathroom stall? Then no.
I would say “I’m sorry you felt uncomfortable… would you like some ice cream?”
I’d consider such a proposal, but I don’t think it’s politically achievable right now. Why is it nonsense to assert that it’s wrong to keep transgender people out of their corresponding restroom? Do you disagree?
And where do I not “even want to keep anyone out”? I think it’s inappropriate for women to go into the men’s room and vice versa. It was inappropriate 20 years ago and it’s inappropriate now and in the future. What’s so different now?
If they want me to confront someone who didn’t behave badly or lewdly, then I would not do so. If they wanted to confront them, I would advise them against it, unless they behaved lewdly or badly in some other way. I would say “I advise against this, unless they behaved lewdly or badly in some other way”.
We’ve had gendered restrooms for decades (or more) without “enforcing” them – people could lie to get in them, and did, and always will. What’s different now?
How is this new? People could always do this. People could always lie. Why is this a new problem when it’s been happening for decades and probably centuries?
Yes, this isn’t new. Bearded men could walk into ladies rooms 10 years ago, and did. Most of the time they wouldn’t be arrested for doing so, unless they did something lewd. Transgender people have been using their corresponding restroom for decades.
You keep talking about “feelings”. Transgender people are talking about being beaten and kicked out and arrested.
Damn Skippy I don’t give a shit about your “feelings” in that situation. I didn’t give a shit about the “feelings” of transgender people, either. I care about their health, safety, and rights, in that order.
But not allowing someone to use a bathroom because of their gender is itself discrimination! Just as we should not have one bathroom for whites and one for blacks, we shouldn’t have one for men and another for women.
So anyone can use any bathroom at any time by deciding what gender they are. There is no way to determine if they really are transgender either, and you wouldn’t ever confront them to find out. So the effect is that bathrooms are now unisex.
And maybe that’s okay. But do you think it will be easy? Do you think nobody will complain? Do you think nobody should complain?
But you could just as easily say that “we have to deal with them as they are” as a way to forbid transgender people from using bathrooms that don’t correspond to their sex.
Now you can’t do a thing about it.
Hmmm. What if your daughter is six years old and just learning to use the lad’s room on her own? And she says “there’s a man in there!” What then?
If you won’t even confront them, what’s the point? You’re saying, de facto, that it doesn’t matter.
What if they undress in public? It’s a locker room.
What if your daughter asks why we even have men’s and women’s rooms? What do you say? We don’t have them any more because anyone can use either one? You have no right to gender privacy any more?
Because you just said you wouldn’t even try to keep someone who is NOT of the same gender out of a bathroom! You wouldn’t even confront them.
It’s “inappropriate” is pretty limp, but whatever. It’s different now because you can’t possibly know who is who. You can’t know who is male or female or even woman or man by gender, since you won’t define them by appearance (which I agree with). So how can you possibly even have gendered restrooms at all? Why pretend the exist now? Why say it is “inappropriate” for one gender to use the other room when you wouldn’t even back up your own wife or daughter when they were confronted with that “inappropriateness?” What’s the point?
Stop dodging. How would you explain to your wife that, if she didn’t like it, her feelings don’t matter? Or to your daughter that it’s “inappropriate” but you’ll do nothing about it?
Wrong. We do enforce them. We use very strong social pressure and sometimes legal means.
Try walking into a women’s room today with women in it and see what happens. Seriously. You act like this is no big deal to anyone. You act like you can just sweep it all away without thinking it through.
Because now a man can literally walk into a women’s locker room or restroom, without looking or dressing or acting like a woman, and you’ll do nothing about it. He doesn’t even have to lie, because you won’t even ask him if he’s using the "appropriate"restroom. Effectively there are no gendered restrooms, even if you pretend there are and that “appropriateness” still counts. That’s different.
I’m not saying any of this to argue against transgenders or their use of restrooms. I’m saying that accomodating them is much harder than anyone seems to think without opening things up to far greater changes, and you either have to accept them - and admit they exist - or you have to violate your own stated principles. I’m just saying stop pretending.
But they might be harassed, or beaten up. Come on - you think men routinely use women’s rooms and locker rooms with no consequences? Really? You’re pretending again.
If it’s discrimination, it’s far, far less significant than barring transgender people from using the bathroom that corresponds to their gender.
Again, how is this new? Most people use the “correct” bathroom (that corresponds to their gender), and most people will continue to do so. Some people will lie and behave badly. What is the new problem here, or the new worry? I see no evidence, and no reason to believe, that more people will use the “wrong” bathroom in the future. Do you have any such evidence?
And that would be wrong, since it would be discriminating against them.
What could you do about it in the past that you can’t do now? What has changed?
Assuming you meant “lady’s room” ;)… then life goes on. If she wants to wait, we wait until the “man” leaves. If she wants to go ahead, then she goes ahead. If I’m concerned, I tell her to scream if there’s any problem.
Yes – it doesn’t matter if people use the bathroom without being lewd or behaving badly. I think it’s inappropriate to deliberately use the bathroom that doesn’t correspond to your gender, but if you’re not lewd or dangerous, I don’t care enough to confront you.
If they do so in a lewd or disruptive manner, then I might contact the authorities. It would depend on many things.
We’ll have along talk about the history and meanings of gender and sex, and how society treats them, and puritanism, and religious influence, and many other factors. This certainly isn’t a new issue – it’s the same way I’d answer it 20 years ago.
How would I know what gender they are? If they are loudly proclaiming “I’m a MAN! I’m a MAN!” as they enter the ladies room, I might notify the authorities – that’s behaving in a disruptive and possibly dangerous manner. But if they just go in to excrete, how could I know their gender?
But this is not new – people could dress in certain ways, or disguise themselves, or use makeup, or whatever. People could always be deceptive. Being deceptive about gender is not new at all.
Because they’ve mostly “worked” without causing suffering (except for transgender people denied their use) for decades and centuries. Most people choose the “correct” bathroom, and they always have (mostly), and always will. Some people will be deceptive – always have, and always will.
Again, what is new? Most people have always gone into the right bathroom. Why is there a sudden worry now?
When did I say her feelings don’t matter? They matter, but that doesn’t necessarily mean a confrontation is warranted.
I’d do something about it – I’d talk to her. If she continued to have concerns, I’d talk some more. We’d do research together, and ask more questions. We’d probably learn a lot of interesting stuff.
So what would change? Going forward we’d continue to do so – strong social pressure to use the bathroom that corresponds with one’s gender identity. How would this cause more problems?
I did it multiple times as a drunk college student (when the men’s room was full). I don’t plan to do it now, but it wasn’t a big deal then, and I doubt it would be a big deal now.
This was mostly how it was in the past. Sometimes someone would speak up, but usually not. Maybe weird looks or shocked intakes of breath.
Most people used the right restrooms. Effectively, most people will continue to do so. Very, very few people are interested in using the wrong restrooms – and those people who wanted to, with the tiniest bit of effort, always could, and always will.
Seriously. If a man, twenty years ago, really wanted to go into a ladies room, it was incredibly easy. So easy to be a joke. He could do it every single day and never get in trouble.
He still can, and he always will be able to. What’s the new issue?
I think it’s you who are pretending – you’re pretending that there are some significant amount of men who want to go into ladies room and weren’t already doing so for decades. I’m saying every man who really, really wanted to go into a ladies room has done so, and someone who wanted to do it every day could easily do so, and always could, and these (rare) folks will continue to do so long into the future.
I’m saying that nothing is different, since most people will continue to use the “correct” restroom, and a small number of people will continue to behave deceptively because they’re weird and creepy, and none of this is new, and pretty much nothing will change. Which parts of this do you disagree with?
Absolutely. You really think that those occasionally weirdoes with ladies bathroom fetishes don’t just go to the tiny, tiny bit of effort (in presenting themselves as female) to go into the bathrooms they want? They’ve been doing so for decades, and nothing has changed, and nothing will change. Pervs gotta perv.
Well, yes, as noted in the link much earlier, but that’s not the point. The point is why pretend there are gendered bathrooms at all? Why pretend they matter, if they don’t?
In the past, you could look at someone and know they weren’t using the “appropriate” restroom.
So if your daughter screams because she sees a man in the lady’s room, what do you tell her?
So here’s the bottom line - you don’t care if someone is uncomfortable using a restroom with a member of the opposite gender, yet you care whether a transgender person is uncomfortable using the bathroom of the opposite gender.
Does that make sense?
Exactly. If you don’t know, then you can’t possibly care.
So why care about transgender people and where they go? Why accomodate their desires to not be around people of certain genders in a restroom while not caring about anyone else’s desires, even your own wife or daughters? Again, I’m not talking about not wanting to share a room with a transgender man, but an actual male.
But there’s no “deceptive” any more. One can say they are transgender, and that’s that. You won’t confront them.
What about a male, who looks like our traditional idea of a man, uses the lady’s room and says he (she) identifies as a woman? Who are you to say she is being deceptive? Transgenderism eliminates the idea of deception. Unless you have some kind of ID card to show they are legitimately transgender, and you confront them and demand it, the idea of “deception” is a joke. It’s not needed any more. What’s deceptive is the idea that we even have gendered bathrooms at all.
Because now those who might want to go in the “wrong” one have nothing to stop them.
Even if they truly honestly believe it’s the right one for them - because you can’t tell someone they don’t “look like” a certain gender.
If you can’t even do a thing when your daughter screams about a man being in the bathroom with her, it doesn’t seem like you care much about her feelings, other than to tell her they are wrong. And that’s okay. All I’m saying is stop pretending you think she has any right to a gendered bathroom at all.
What would you say is right or wrong about it? Would you tell her not to be concerned? That anyone can use the restroom? You’re dodging again. I don’t care if you tell her it’s okay for both sexes to use the restroom together - I just want you to come out and say it instead of pretending.
How does one exert social pressure when they can’t even exert social pressure to force males to dress like “men” and females like “women?” How does that work? If you won’t “confront” anyone over it, you can’t exert any social pressure.
College is different. Your mom or young daughter wasn’t in the bathroom. I didn’t say it was a big deal either. I’m saying you are taking it way too lightly.
Uh, no, in the past, sometimes people screamed, called the police, beat someone up, etc.
You’re still not getting the discconnect - if it is no big deal for men to use the lady’s room, and you don’t care about anyone who thinks it is - why are you concerned about transgender people? Why not just tell them “it’s not big deal?” If you can’t even tell your wife or daughter that her feelings about who they share a bathtroom with matters, why care about transgender people?
There’s no such thing as the “right” restrooms. Even you said so. You’d teach your own daughter that.
Now you’re just in denial.
If that were the case, we wouldn’t need to have accomodations and laws protecting transgender people in the first place!!!
Yes, because if being caught entering a females only restroom is an automatic arrest that’s a chance some will decline to take. However, when an option exists that somehow could used as a legal defense (i.e., the restroom was nongendered), some of them will try to press that advantage.
So you think we should have the same restrooms for men and women? No men’s rooms and lady’s rooms, just one? Same for locker rooms? And you think anyone who doesn’t like that idea is a bigot?
I’m not talking about transgender people, I’m talking about biological males using a women’s restroom or locker room.
Your daughter, age 6, sees a man in the lady’s room and freaks out. What do you say to her and what do you about it?
The daughter then grow up and becomes a transgender man. He is upset about having to use the lady’s room with women. What do you say to her and what do you do about it?
Hey, lance strongarm-it’s the 50’s and your daughter, age 6, sees an African-American woman in a Whites only womens room and freaks out. What do you say to her and what do you do about it?
No, not at all. Sorry to confuse. I want to see whether the answers to both questions would be any different. I want to know why someone should care about how a transgender person feels (rightly so) yet not care about how a child feels in the same exact sort of situation.
So when are you going to protest “separate but equal” restrooms for different genders, pal? You’re a bigot if you don’t boycott them.
I’ve already said this, but I’ll say it again - I’m not talking about transgenders here. I am talking about restrooms and locker rooms separated by gender, period. You and Whynot both walked into a conversation you don’t understand.
Because I’ve yet to hear from any victims of any such discrimination. Real discrimination affects people, and these people speak up about it if they are able – that’s how we know. If you know of lots of victims of discrimination caused by gendered bathrooms, then I’m willing to be educated, and I’d like to hear from them.
They matter as much as they always have – to most people, they matter, and to some few, they will use deception to be weird. Most people will go to their corresponding bathroom – always have and always will.
But you’d be wrong if they went to the slightest effort to deceive. Deception happened in the past and will happen in the future.
“I’m sorry you felt uncomfortable – let’s go get ice cream!”
You don’t have my position accurately. With gendered bathrooms, transgender people should be free to use the bathroom that corresponds to their gender, as should everyone else, so everyone should go to the bathroom with only people of their gender. Some people will lie and be deceptive, but they always have and always will. Most people will not.
Because transgender people have been brutalized in the past, and made to feel legitimate fear for their safety, when using the bathroom. Again, it’s not about the desire to “not be around people of certain genders” – it’s about the desire to use the bathroom that corresponds to their gender.
That’s still deceptive (if they’re not being honest) – it’s lying. Bad people will lie, just as they always have. How do you propose to stop this?
Why would I say she is deceptive? If she identifies as a woman, then she is a woman, end of story. If this person lies about their gender identification, then they are being deceptive, and that is bad, but that has always been possible.
Perhaps. There’s lots of self-deception in society. But gendered bathrooms are usually not deceptive – the vast majority of the time, in the past, present, and future, people will use the bathroom that corresponds to their gender.
What could stop them in the past that can’t today? It seems like you’re worried about pervs who want to go into the ladies room (and easily could have, and did so, in the past, with a little effort) and no longer even have to make the effort to present as traditionally female. That seems like a worry that is probably so rare as to never happen. Folks like that could always get into the ladies room if they wanted – they were deceptive in the past in how they dressed, and perhaps they’d be deceptive now in their claims of self-identification, but I see no way to stop it, and because it’s so incredibly rare I barely care at all.
Why do you care about a possibility that seems so remote as to almost never happen, most likely?
If they truly honestly believe it’s the right one for them then it is the right one for them.
What could I do, but educate her, if she screams about an ugly woman, or a black woman, or a fat woman, or a transwoman? I care about her feelings, and they can be legitimate, without requiring a confrontation. Why is education and further discussion “telling her that they are wrong”, or doing nothing? That seems like the appropriate action.
What would you do that’s so different?
I already talked about the research – it’d be a great conversation. We’d read about gender and society and transgender folks and all kinds of things. We’d go deep into Wikipedia and other cites. I can’t wait for stuff like this! Parenting will be so much fun.
We’d learn so much, and it’d be awesome, and she’d feel great and we’d bond and it’d be wonderful and we’d have ice cream to celebrate. Why would this be a bad thing? How is this dodging?
I’d confront people who behave in a transphobic manner, just as I’d confront people who do or say racist things. That’s one of the big reasons public racism is less common than it once was.
I wouldn’t confront someone for being trans, or possibly being trans, or possibly using the “wrong” restroom (without behaving lewdly or otherwise badly), etc.
I think you’re taking it way too seriously. I think the problem you’re proposing will be as rare as adults pretending to be children to get a child’s discount at the movies.
What would stop that from happening in the future?
Because transgender people have been brutalized over this problem. It’s not about mere comfort – it’s about safety from brutalization, and from reasonable fear of brutalization.
In the context of gendered bathrooms, the “right” restroom is the one that corresponds to one’s gender.
No u
Seriously, it was and is really easy. My buddy and I dressed up as women for Halloween about 15 years ago, in downtown Baton Rouge, and used the ladies room. It was stupid, but it was incredibly easy.
Except for, you know, the brutalization.
Still don’t know what actual problem you’re so concerned about.
But sure. I’d ask my daughter why she’s upset. Mostly, I’d model by my unconcern that this isn’t something worth getting upset over. She doesn’t get upset by boys using the women’s room, there is no reason to get upset about a man using the woman’s room (which isn’t even the topic of the thread). There’s even less reason tho be upset by an ugly woman who maybe once had a penis using the woman’s room.
And if she persisted, I’d apologize profusely that my daughter was being a little shit and we’d immediately leave, same as I’d handle any other case of my child misbehaving in public.