I can’t keep up any more, iiandyiiii. Sorry. Please see my new question in another post.
lance’s issue here is that he sees racially segregated restrooms as a fundamental moral wrong, but gender segregated restrooms as a fundamental moral right. Most of the people he’s arguing with see gendered restrooms as, at best, a quaint throwback to Victorian ideas of modesty, but he thinks that deep down he can walk us in a scenario where we’ll be forced to admit that we really do think gendered restrooms are a moral right. lance, it’s just not going to happen, we don’t view the world the same way you do.
Unless someone is exposing themselves to your hypothetical little girl, you tell her to settle down and either go into a stall and use it, or hold it for a couple minutes until all the people the two of you don’t approve of leave the bathroom.
Fair enough. I’m doing my best to answer these honestly, and I await your new question.
You’re right. We wandered.
So don’t walk in here and act like we didn’t. That’s not fair.
You only answered the first part.
What would you say if she became a transgender male and expressed the exact same issue of not wanting to share a bathroom with people of the opposite gender?
Would you tell him that “he doesn’t get upset by girls using the men’s room, there is no reason to get upset about having to use the woman’s room?”
I would tell him he should use whichever bathroom feels safest to him.
No, don’t speak for me, that’s not right. I’m challenging the inconsistencies between the two.
And I don’t think any of you think gendered restrooms are a moral right. You’ve mad that clear. I think you are INCREDIBLY naive and dismissive when you say other people’s beliefs about such a sensitive, private issue should just be ignored and they should all be forced to use unisex bathrooms and locker rooms and shamed if they don’t want to. I think it’s amazing you think you’d get away with it in the real world.
Most important, it’s laughably inconsistent with the concern expressed for transgender people’s desire to us the restroom of their choice. You say transgender people’s desires for gender privacy should be respected, yet you can’t even bring yourselves to say that anyone else’s desire not to share a room with the opposite gender - not talking about transgender people here, but just plain biological sexes - should be respected? It makes no damn sense.
So your six-year-old daughter was a brat for wanting to do the same thing? She had to switch genders just to make you respect her feelings about it? She was a brat for not feeling safe with a man in the restroom with her?
I appreciate it. The question was already posed, but here it is again:
Suppose your young daughter didn’t like using the restroom with a male in it (not a transgender, simply a biological male). What do you say?
Then she grows up and becomes a transgender male and no longer wants to use the women’s room. What do you say?
My cisgender daughter is not at high risk of harm from a man in the woman’s room. My transgender son is at high risk of harm no matter which bathroom he uses. Since I can’t make him safe, I have to encourage him to follow his instincts. If he thinks he can pass as male today, the mens room is probably a safer bet. If his clothing or hormonal milieu is making him look female today, then maybe the women’s room is a better option.
Until the world either gets past gender policing, or we move to unisex toilets, I cannot give a transgender person the same advice as a cisgender person, because their comparative levels of risk are entirely different.
The idea that your 6-year-old daughter faces no risk if men use the restroom with her is kind of laughable. But it’s not just about risk, its about her actual feelings about privacy.
And your policy means that any time a transgender person doesn’t face risk, we could force them back into the other restroom. If risk is all it’s about and not the person’s feelings about it.
“Transwomen are women/ladies, not men, and this is the restroom that corresponds to their gender”. For further questions, we’d do research and continue to talk.
EDIT: I misunderstood your question, which is not about trans people (I’ll answer again in my next post).
I believe that any feelings or desires to not use a restroom with a trans person are bigoted feelings and desires, even if those feelings/desires are sourced in a desire not to use a restroom with someone who is biologically male. Failing/refusing to recognize that transwomen are actually women, not men, is bigoted, in my view.
“You are a man and the restroom that corresponds to your gender is the men’s room”.
Suppose your young [white child] didn’t like using the restroom with a [black person] in it. What do you say?
Then she [gets a skin pigmentation disorder] and becomes a [black person] and no longer wants to use the [white’s only] room. What do you say?
“That person may have been transgender, and if they were not, then they were being deceptive, and that is wrong. Everyone should be honest and use the restroom that corresponds to their gender, but sometimes it’s possible that we may not know for sure whether a person inside the restroom is being honest or deceptive. If they are not harming anyone or behaving lewdly, it is best to treat them as if they are being honest and simply may not present in the expected way that corresponds to their gender”.
So do you believe that gender-separated restrooms are a fundamental wrong that should be immediately abolished by federal law the way race-separated restrooms were?
If you say no, you have no business making that comparison.
So answer the question instead of throwing out unfair ones, pal. Do you?
Okay, we’re getting closer, but what I meant is what if there was a man - and you KNEW it was a man, with male genitals, who identifies as a man - in the restroom with her?
Again, this line of conversation is not about transgenders.
Well, we’ve successfully done it once before, why couldn’t we get away with it again?
This is the same bullshit argument that anti-gay bigots use to push “religious freedom” bills. “All you care about is gay rights, what about my right not to have to work with gay people?”
You are so fucking lost. You have no idea what we are discussing. I’m not going to fill you in either, since I’ve already explained that you are lost. Please stop trying to insert yourself into a conversation you don’t understand.
Yes, I do, insofar as I’ve already stated; I think there should be a laws, probably not at the federal level but I’d like to think 50-state-wide, prohibiting anyone operating any public restroom from enforcing gender separation.
This is not the same thing as making all bathrooms unisex by removing gendered signs, although you may be working to convince me that that’s actually necessary. I don’t see that as being required at the moment; I think you can leave the gendered signs up and everyone will just accept that it’s a convention, not a rule or a law, and that in reality all bathrooms are legally unisex.
That’s entirely different – in the case that I know for a fact (I suppose because they told me beforehand, or something) that they are being deceptive, I would consider confronting them (probably when they left, so as to not make a scene, assuming they aren’t doing anything else wrong) or informing the authorities or proprietors.
Such deception is wrong, but such clear deception is entirely different from a person going into a restroom and not being sure what their gender identity is.