Transgendered people lack integrity and cannot be trusted....

The BBQ Pit
81

Short answer, “Yeah”. When it effects job performance. Either his or others in the workplace.

I reject the whole “life threatening disease” analogy. Transgenderism is not a disease. People undergo treatments for cancer, heart surgery, diabetes or whatever to stay alive. Its the survival instinct. Pretty universal. Pretty easy to understand. Lots of people identify with it. Conversly, transgenderism is realitivly rare, I would imagine, and difficult for for the person “suffering” (for lack of a better term) from it to deal with and hard for the rest of us neandertals to wrap our heads around. You can empathize, but can you really understand? I’d be willing to bet there is a lot of confusion and stress going on in someone’s mind when it comes to making a decision like chopping off Willie and sitting to pee the rest of your life. Point is, its a choice. Not gonna kill you if you don’t. People don’t “elect” to get cancer.

People lose thier jobs all the time for alcoholism, drug addiction, going thru nasty divorces or for just plain being assholes and disrupting the work place. To paraphrase Nathan Arizona, “I ain’t runnin’ no Daisy Farm!”. When you fuck up the office, something has to give. Even if you can still do the job.

The PC backlash is amazing. To think that elected officials “cave in to thier constituant’s ignorance and prejudice”* (RE: Represent, like it or not) are automaticaly in the wrong because the person they want to shit-can is gay, black, white, indian or whatever cracks me up. If you disagree with Bush’s agenda and want to impeach him, would you still want to impeach him if you disagreed with his agenda and he was gay/black/indian/white/martian/jewish?
I wish I had all you people on my bandwagon when I get fired for being a dick! (but having an excellent work record)

Now, I’ll admit I only skimmed the thread after the post I qouted, and don’t quite know where its heading now, so this may neither be here nor there. Just wanted to answer the question posed to me.

*I especially like this! “Hey, Goddammit! I didn’t vote for you to NOT represent me!”

82

When did it affect job performance? His or others?

When did he fuck up?

83

So, if the people at my job are such dedicated homophobes that just being around me is affecting their job performance, I’m the one at fault? What if I were black, and people were refusing to work with me because of that? How about women? If the rest of the office is too busy harrassing the chicks they work with to do their job, it’s the woman who’s screwing up?

Is that really your position, here?

No, but it is a serious birth defect, and vastly decreases the victim’s quality of life.

People don’t “elect” to be transgendered, either. And the bulk of the psychological difficulty they have with the condition comes before they decide to transition, not after. If Stanton was able to do her job when she was living as a man, she will (most likely) be even more effective at her job once she starts living full time as a woman, as her largest stressor (trying to live as the wrong gender) will have been removed.

What did Stanton “fuck up?” Who has she been an asshole to? How has her transgenderism impacted her ability to do her job, which apparently she was quite good at back when everyone thought she was a man?

If that’s the only reason they want to shit-can them, then yes, they’re automatically in the wrong. That’s called “bigotry,” and generally speaking, we’re ag’in it around here. Congratulations for being the iconoclast, though.

Yes, because I want to impeach him because of his agenda. I don’t care what race, sex, or religion he is. That’s because I’m not a bigot. Stanton is not being fired because of her job performance. She is being fired because she is a transexual. Unless you have some evidence that she was actually incompetent at her job? Please, by all means, share with the rest of the class.

If you get fired for being a dick, then you’re shit out of luck. If you get fired for having a dick, however, I’m sure there are no end of people on the board who would be happy to support you.

Great. Ignorant and proud. How’s that working out for you?

If someone wants to be chosen as the representative of a bunch of bigots, that person doesn’t deserve any more respect than the bigots they represent.

84

Well, as i read your post i was formulating a long reply in my head, but Miller covered just about all the bases, so i’ll add a hearty “What he said.”

I do want to note one thing, though.

It’s interesting that you reject explicitly any analogy between transgenderism and life-threatening diseases like cancer, yet you’re perfectly happy to make analogies between transgenderism and diseases like a drug addiction and alcoholism, which tend to carry a negative moral weight in our society. And which are also, by the way, often life-threatening diseases.

Are you intentionally trying to portray transgenderism as merely a questionable moral choice, or are you just unaware of the glaring inconsistency in your position?

85

I wouldn’t care to comment on how easy it is to be transgendered today or 25 years ago, as I have absolutely no experience being transgendered. You make an excellent point about confusing high level justices with small-minded citizens, though. Having laws put in place to protect people from prejudices and bigotry is a wonderful thing. Enforcing those laws and having your average citizen behave decently towards other people is a whole 'nother thing.

86

Neither; he’s just a dick. The disturbing part is that he’s proud of it.

87

I would rather believe that than the truth. Unfortunately, we’re stuck with the sad truth, this is just a case of the same old ignorant bigotry. Transgender acceptance is currently on the bleeding edge of social change, which means that at the tipping point* (perhaps sometime around right now), half the people will be on board with change and half will lag behind. It’s like the truism “Half the people are dumber than average.”

I grew up in the 1960s, I was weaned and teethed on the Civil Rights Movement, and I tend to see all subsequent liberation movments through that lens. I remember the tipping point in the '60s. It took Bull Connor’s police dogs and fire hoses on peaceful demonstrators, mayhem on the Selma marchers, murders of Freedom Riders, etc. to finally awaken America’s conscience. And America finally got a clue. (on the soundtrack: Dixie Chicks - “I Hope”) I believe in the ability of the American people and American justice system to eventually get it right. Hope it doesn’t take too long.

*I’m a dancer, maybe I should call it “turning point,” pace Shirley Maclaine.

88

I was just thinking, what if this was 1952, and a 14-year mayor of a large Southern town admitted that he was actually 1/4 black? How about if it’s today, and Stanton admitted after 14 years in office that she was actually biologically female and had been passing as a man the entire time? There would probably have been about the same reaction.

What I’m wondering now, not that this is terribly likely, is whether or not the state-provided medical benefits cover reassignment surgery. Because that’d be, like, ironic and stuff.

89

I’m trying to look at this from all sides.

I’m physically (and presumably genetically, though I’ve never been genotyped as far as I know and I suppose it’s possible I’m XXY) female. One of the big huge perks of being female in the 21st century is that I can dress however I like. I can wear makeup or not, dresses or not, slacks or not. If I wear men’s clothing and cut my hair short I wouldn’t even get a second glance in my church.

Men don’t have this luxury. The best they can do outwardly is dress in gentler men’s clothing – silk shirts, slightly feminized colors – or they’re going to gain a lot of attention. A man can’t wear a skirt without stares and mockery. A woman with traditional ‘masculine’ characteristics is often considered strong, a go-getter. A man with traditional ‘feminine’ characteristics, by contrast, is considered weak, a sissy.

Someone who chooses to be a woman rather than a man (and goodness no, I’m not saying anyone chooses to be transgendered; I’m trying to be the Devil’s advocate here) is choosing all the traditional trappings of femininity. Take a look at, to pick a name not entirely at random, Hillary Clinton. She is definitely not a girly-girl. Women in power frequently take on assertive, even aggressive characteristics. They aren’t afraid of saying what they mean, of getting what they want. In short, they’re taking on the roles traditionally assigned to men.

A M to F transsexual is taking on roles traditionally assigned to women. Politics is not a place for girly girls. It requires an assertiveness, a personality that is not traditionally ascribed to femininity. Female warmth and compassion, for example, are used by female politicians to set them apart – but just enough that people looking for traditional femininity will still see it in them.

Male or female, the conception – right or wrong – is that you have to be masculine to be a politician. Stanton is seen by his detractors to be rejecting all that is masculine by undergoing an operation to remove all physical vestiges of that gender. They wanted someone tough; they feel like they’re suddenly going to get a powder puff.

Now for my actual opinion.

The above is a load of horseshit. It’s perception, nothing more. They might be afraid that they’re sending off a mayor and getting back a delicate flower, but the fact is, they’re going to get the same person back. What Stanton is doing is correcting a birth defect. There’s a disconnect betwixt brain and body in him, and he’s getting it repaired. Apart from the complexity of a vaginoplasty and the fact that almost by necessity transsexuality must be diagnosed and treated well after the onset of puberty, there’s no difference here between this surgery and the repair of a cleft palate or a clubfoot. While I don’t think there’s a gender imperative to wear soft clothes and lacy undergarments, I do believe there are differences between the male and female mind. I can understand the agony and frustration of looking into the mirror and seeing something entirely different from the inner self, of being culturally incapable of realizing who you truly are, of being true to yourself inside and out.

90

And if a trans woman is a feminist, believes women should be assertive, and acts on that belief? She’ll be told, “That’s just your old male privilege you haven’t let go of.” i.e. you’re still acting like a man, implying your claim to be a woman is suspect.

And if she isn’t assertive? She’ll be told “You’re trying too hard to be feminine, ‘real’ women are tough, look at Hillary.”

Can’t win either way.

91

Well, that’s reality for all of us. Nobody escapes uncertainty and trying to figure out how to be true to yourself and fit in with the world too.

92

It’s because humans are so good at pattern recognition that we put everything in boxes so we can understand it better. It has breasts = it’s feminine = it’s passive.

It’s also not fair, but neither is life. Fairness is a very human concept and even we are not good at it.

I’m deeply sorry for what you have to go through. Everyone has personal identity crises. It’s got to be worse when one of the main sources of personal identity doesn’t even work the way it’s supposed to.

93

Reveal themselves at the time they decide to change, or when they discover they have gender identity issues? Was it improper for Rock Hudson, whose career was playing romantic leads, to not reveal his gayness? The public image of many people is far different from their private reality. I don’t think it was really necessary for Jack Benny to announce that he wasn’t really cheap.

If you mean notification when the change was imminent, then I agree with you. Actors audition under appearance criteria that would be downright illegal in other jobs. The SAG sheet one fills out is practically a list of questions that can’t be asked on interviews.

94

A little? That’s almost two and a half times the pecentage of Americans over the age of 65 .*

Largo? Largo has less than a 100,000 residents. You know, I was talking about Largo, not Tampa - St.Pete.

  • all of this is really irrelevant, as I was employing hyperbole in a j-o-k-e.
95

I thought transgendered people are always transgendered?

96

Geez, “mole removal” was bad enough. Can you rephrase? (crosses legs uncomfortably)

I don’t see why the voters of Largo can’t decide this without anyone else acting at all. Why can’t he do the same job wearing a dress?

On the other hand -

Gee, can you imagine? :rolleyes:

Regards,
Shodan

97

Which brings up an interesting set of questions to my mind.

Let’s say Mitch and Molly are married. Molly realizes that she’s been living a lie all these years and is, in fact, Mike. Mitch, being an egalitarian bisexual and quite in love with his wife-turning-husband, would like to go on being married to Molly-now-Mike.

1: Assuming Mike receives a… a… peneplasty? I’m ignorant of the word. Assuming Mike has one, is he legally a man?
2: Can he legally remain married to Mitch if he is?
3: What if Mike just starts taking testosterone and gets a masectomy?
4. Do these answers change if Mitch considers that he is truly a woman?

I’m curious about the current legal answer to these questions as well as the social conservative answer, provided it’s not “Well we’d prefer the situation never came up”, an answer I hear all too frequently in various guises.

98

Well if my husband had never alluded to the fact that he felt more comfortable as a woman and sprung it on me one day, I would feel deceived, lied to and living with someone I didn’t know. The OP article is rather another matter but perhaps a little of the same feelings are involved.
Sometimes the US makes me laugh (in a sad kind of incredulous way) - from outside of the US we hear all about everyone’s right to do anything, say anything and anti any kind of government control over anything including things like seatbelts (how ridiculous), then we get these uber conservative situations.
Yes NZ has a conservative streak and many people would be outraged at their neighbour having blue hair, however, we generally manage to have more ‘freedom’ than most Americans. I believe we were the first to have a transgendered mayor who went on to become a minister in parliament - Georgina Beyer. She was even on dancing with the stars and started out as a prostitute. I’ve heard her speak in a lecture and she is a pretty cool woman.
(not to mention that we were the first to give women the vote)

99

I think Bambi was referring to the county. Those of us living in in Pinellas County cities such as St. Pete, Pinellas Park, Seminole, Largo, Clearwater and some of the even smaller burbs tend to consider us all pretty close neighbors. Once you start getting close to the Pasco county line the solidarity ends though, so those guys in Tarpon Springs are on their own.

Anyway, we’re not all bigots around here and I think Bambi was objecting to the stereotyping. I think you’re thinking of places like Ruskin and Arcadia. :wink:
From what I heard, Stanton did not want to make his announcement just yet. I think he was going to ease into it so it would be less shocking and traumatic for people like Mary Gray Black, but news of it leaked and he had to announce it and discuss it with his son before the news was leaked.

There was a protest today about Stanton’s firing which was started by a church group. I’ve been hearing a lot more objections to his firing than I have heard support of it so I hope this will backfire on the Largo City Commission big time.

I’ve disliked the Largo City Commission intensely ever since they cut the Bay Area Renaissance Festival loose. Now I have to go to Tampa for BARF. :mad:

100

I wasn’t saying you’re bigots. Just older than most. What seems to have been lost is that I was making a stupid joke. I know there are a few people under 65 there. My guess is that at least half the voting-age population is under 65. The place just radiates youth, I tells ya.