Penis-Only.
Not a penis-Only.
Solved.
Okay. First of all, Buck Angel is not intersexed. This is the second time you’ve said that about him, and it’s simply not true. He’s a female to male transexual. For fuck’s sake, this is what he looked like before he transitioned.
As for Dana International, I didn’t realize that she was post OP. For the sake of this argument, pretend that picture was taken post-transition, but pre-surgery. Or, if it makes it easier for you, substitute the image of Serena Valentina I posted up thread - she’s definately pre-op.
Now, which locker rooms should they use?
Cite or shut the fuck up.
What, quoting you?
No, he isn’t.
Holy shit, it’s back to the same old stuff seen in every trans discussion. Some don’t bother to learn the facts, they don’t bother to think of the over-arching social issues, and heaven forfend any compassion be shown. For several people in this thread, it boils down to “penis panic” or “trannies are icky,” just hidden behind a veneer of bigger words and false arguments.
Yikes. I’m sorry my internet was out yesterday…mods, I think at this point this needs to be shuffled over to Great Debates, yes?
In the cultural context of this particular spa, it would not be acceptable; I’m not sure if there’s a written rule about it, but I’ve never seen a swim suit there, and it would probably draw just as much attention as a penis in the Women’s Spa.
I’ve been back over my title and my OP, and while I think you are technically correct, I also think it’s a distinction without a difference in this particular instance. If it makes you feel better, cut and paste the OP into Word and do a search and replace for gender with sex and see if it changes your response into something more helpful.
Or, conversely, let me add that the two wet spas are labeled “Men’s” and “Women’s”, not “Male” and “Female” so, yes, *gender *divided is the perfectly correct phrase to use.
These spaces are segregated by *both *gender and sex, Men and Male on one side and Women and Female on the other.
Either way, I don’t see where your point adds anything constructive to the discussion.
Hi. My name has been brought up a lot. I want to hasten to say I don’t know the right answer, certainly. Someone even accused me of being condescending and “allowing” people the right to do things. That same person also made a little comment about my use of pronouns, cutting out my apology on my misuse of pronouns. As I said, please find me an acceptable gender neutral word and I’ll use it.
This particular conversation is so touchy I hesitate even to get involved. Rest assured, attacking people will not change their minds.
I suppose in the end I will just have to get used to it. This is a very difficult concept for people who are very firmly, in their own heads, matched to their physical gender. I am female. I think female. I have some male traits but I am definitely female. So it’s hard for me to think some other way. I have less of a problem with desegregation of minorities, because I am one, or women, because I am one, or even of gay people, because that’s just all about whom you love, and it makes no difference to me.
I try to put myself into other people’s shoes. I kind of feel like everyone here is saying “Well, you have to put up with anybody coming into your locker room.” Some people are even saying locker rooms should be completely desegregated.
I am not comfortable with that. I’m not exactly 100% comfortable with seeing naked penis in my locker room, at any point. Nor a person with clearly masculine features.
But all I can say is I promise I will try. It’s why I read these threads. To try and understand.
The thing is, though, there is a substantial difference between passing a transitional person or an intersex person in the mall and in the locker room. And the latter does distress me. I can’t help it, though I am trying.
I do feel like people are desperately trying to reach for every possible alternative there might be, in order to score points in a debate. That’s certainly not a surprise, here on the Dope. And for that reason, I’m bowing out of this thread.
If I know how a specific person identifies, I use the appropriate pronouns. If I don’t or if I’m talking in generalities, I use they, them, their. Yes, sometimes it creates awkward things like “everyone has to do what is best for themself” but it can’t be helped.
As a debate has broken out, and at the request of the OP, I am moving this to Great Debates.
Ellen Cherry
The dogma that, e.g., someone who is born male, still has a penis, still has a male body, is a woman for no other reason than because he or she says that he or she is a woman, is by no means a “fact” no matter how loudly or often it is asserted. There’s a difference between a person’s refusal to engage in other people’s bullshit and disgust or bigotry towards that person.
It’s not as big a difference as you’d like to think.
I don’t believe that people who claim to be dolphins or dragons are actually those things. I refuse to go along with whatever is causing them to say that they are (mental illness, desire to provoke a reaction, arrested development, whatever the case may be). I’m not going to address you as Lord Griffonlord Flamebreather or provide you with seventeen roasted horses for dinner. That doesn’t mean I think you should be assaulted, or denied a job that you are qualified for, or prevented from marrying someone, or insulted on the street unprovoked, or anything else. Do you think I’m being disingenuous? I will treat people with dignity and fairness, but I am not obligated to participate in their delusions. I would like to hear how you think that’s impossible.
I disagree that mtf transsexuals are “born male”
http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.long
There are some facts you should acquaint yourself with in that link
Good to know that the struggles and pain of all transsexuals is just “bullshit”
I tend to agree with this although I perhaps would not be as strident about it. Ultimately, going by how someone says they feel instead of their anatomy is problematic in many cases. For example, what would prevent me, a man with no desire to be a female, from saying I am a woman in order to leer at women at a spa? And although there seems to be some evidence of differing brain chemistry in transsexuals, I don’t think that alone should be the end all be all. We generally don’t allow mentally handicapped people who have the mentality of a child to engage in activities with children even though they behave as such. Most people would balk at letting a 40-year-old mentally disabled person join the boy scouts, or date a teenager. I don’t see that as too different given that it is largely the difference between how they appear and how they act/see themselves that would give people pause. Obviously, compassion should be shown, but I don’t think we need to completely change everything to suit a tiny minority of people in a small number of circumstances.
Hear that you transsexuals? You’re just deluded!
You’re doing a bang-up job of it in this thread.
You’re reading a lot of assertions that I’m not saying into my post, unsurprisingly.
Well, this is a great example of my point. If you’re just going to insist that I have to agree that you are a dragon or otherwise be literally Hitler, then there is nothing I can do and no debate to be had. But the plain fact is that you are not a dragon. I believe at this point the burden is on you to explain why it’s not good enough for me to disclaim any interest in critiquing or changing your identity and treat you as I would treat any other person, but instead, that I be required to actively endorse and perpetuate your untrue assertions.
Not some difference in neurochemistry, a big difference in neuro anatomy. And why shouldn’t it be the end all be all? Unless you want to get metaphysical, you are your brain.
Why?
All the developmentally disabled folks I know are aware of their chronological age and that they are not like other people. They may act, sometimes, in a child like manner. But, they know they are not children.
I don’t think we need to change things either. Women go in the women’s room. Men go in the men’s room. I just include pre op and non op MTFs as women, and pre op and non op FTMs as men.