Transgendered teen bound, strangled, beaten to death with shovel: Hate crime or not?

Shodan, I feel chagrin that you, whom I respect highly, took that “invincible ignorance” jab as directly aimed at you. Surely you can see that for some of those present, this was a case of “this evil gay kid deceiving some good boys into having sex with him by pretending to be a girl, and they did nothing more than what any self-respecting man would do if he found himself so deceived.” And they will bend the facts of the case, and the entire complexity of what constitutes transgenderism and gender dysphoria, into something that constitutes support for their side.

Okay, first, IMHO Eddie/Gwen should have taken the supposed moral standards of the young men into account, and been upfront about who and what she was, prior to entering into sex with them. However, also IMHO three men in their early 20s who jointly want to have gang-sex together with a girl below the age of consent whom they’ve just met at a party are on rather slippery footing in the “moral standards” department. While you might be able to get that dog to hunt, he looks rather moribund to me.

Second, unless you are seriously interested in having sex with another person, the question of his or her genitalia, genetic complement, fertility, and so on, takes second fiddle to that of treating him or her with respect and courtesy, as whatever he or she presents as.

I am a man with an annoyingly fine-grained beard (annoying because that fineness makes shaving a much more difficult operation than is normal for men), an occipital ridge, normal male hip-angle, less than normal body fat, a penis and testicles, and insofar as I know a normal XY complement. I have been fortunate to inherit the McNeil retention of a full head of hair into late middle age; pattern baldness being sex-linked, I should have fallen prey to my mother’s father’s baldness gene or Mom’s mother’s father’s baldness gene, but instead seem to have linked back to my maternal grandmother’s mother’s father’s gene and kept my hair. And I conceive of myself internally as a man, find some women to be sexually attractive, and present myself to the world as a (relatively geeky) male in middle age.

My parents expected a girl. I’m not sure what preindications were available during pregnancy in 1948, but I faked them out. Fortunately, they rose to the occasion, named me “David” instead of the “Mary” they’d decided on, and brought me up as a good little boy. (Their inevitable fallings short in doing so are stuff I intend to share only with my wife, foster son, and daughter-in-law, and then only when relevant to discussing how it impacted my personality or in what to avoid in the raising of their kids and why they need to avoid it.)

I do recall being highly offended at age 10 to find out that only girls could have babies – I thought it was a neat thing to have one, and felt shortchanged that us boys couldn’t. (It was another year or so before Dad got around to explaining our part in the baby-making process to me.)

Now, here’s the key point to me in attempting to grasp what’s going on here. I can dimly conceive of how I might have wanted to be a girl, given all that information. And because I’m acutely aware of how parental values and tastes are readily assimilated by small children (I’ve watched Chris’s three define themselves in terms of what their parents, aunt, and older relatives are over the past few years.) – because of that, I can easily see where different choices in my infancy and childhood could easily have made me feel that I was “really” a girl. Too, I’m not so quickly convinced that there is not a genetic or congenital element to what the transgendered feel.

Bottom line for me is, if somebody represents herself to be a girl or woman, my only proper task is to accept her as such; and if a man or boy, the same. I don’t anticipate anyone lusting for my body to the extent that we will need to discuss what biological equipment may be under his or her clothing, and whether it’s what he or she was born with or the product of surgery.

I also recognize that “reality” can be a very slippery concept. You and I, Shodan, have been faced with a parade of college freshmen and sophomores who are convinced that there’s no “real” evidence for God, and the faith we hold dear is an unreasoned superstition. And I fall back on Lib’s definitions – for me, “real” is what you know in your heart is true. The fact that the stars don’t spell out the Shema in square Hebrew letters every night is irrelevant.

And by that standard, a peniphore who believes herself to be a woman, and is prepared to undergo psychological and hormonal therapy and surgery to equip her body with the right structure to do so, deserves to be treated as a woman. And a vulviphore who thinks he is a man, and is prepared to do the convere set of treatments, deserves to be treated as one.

And any person who would assault and kill anyone else because he or she is anything – black, white, gay, straight, bi, old, young, transgendered, Catholic, Jewish, pagan, atheist, or left-handed – deserves to be locked away indefinitely.

**

At least I know you don’t need XY chromosones to be heterosexual.

**

I’m using a false name right now (it doesn’t say “Lamia” on my birth certificate), but I don’t think I’m fooling anyone about my identity. I’m also wearing the clothing I am most comfortable in, jeans and a flannel shirt. That’s how I like to dress, and warm, sturdy, functional clothes fit well with my lifestyle and personal identity. A gauzy frock would not. But if Gwen Araujo was most comfortable wearing a dress, how would wearing a dress be dishonest for her? It would be dishonest for her to dress in a way that she didn’t really want to dress.

They could have been a little more clear before they decided to brutally murder her. What chance did she have if she never knew they felt so strongly about transsexuals until they began beating her to death? If it’s so important to them that they not have sex with transsexuals then maybe they should have thought about mentioning this fact before having sex with someone they didn’t know well and whose genitals they’d never seen. If I had some sexual preference so strong that I’d be willing to kill over it, I’d put a little effort into making sure of things ahead of time.

Polycarp -

If it helps, I didn’t feel that your ‘invincible ignorance’ remark was aimed at me. I wasn’t offended, and I hope I didn’t offend you.

I chose your remark as an example of the exasperation that (I think) both sides of this debate are feeling.

On the one hand, we have a batch of well-intentioned Dopers who agree that this was a horrible crime fully deserving of punishment. And that people should be left in peace to work out their own lives and sexual identities, and neither threatened nor coerced to betray their own deepest feelings.

On the other, you have at least one Doper floundering in confusion while he is told that the meaning of the terms ‘male’ and ‘female’ can change almost at random, and that subjective feelings and unexpressed opinions are more determinative of reality than what can be seen first hand. And that anyone who would like to retain the clarity of saying ‘XY = male’ and ‘XX = female’ tends to be dismissed as a nasty bigot. Even if said Doper is perfectly willing to leave others to do whatever seems right in their own eyes with anyone who is willing to give an informed consent.

My problems come in when I find myself on both sides.

Nobody deserves to be beaten to death because s/he has gender identity issues. And nobody deserves to be deceived into having sex in ways that they would not have chosen absent the deception.

If Araujo wants to wear a dress and call himself/herself a woman, so what? But I think that creates somewhat more of an affirmative duty on his part to make it clear to prospective or actual sex partners exactly what is going on in his head and in his pants. And just dismissing the interest of others in knowing who they are screwing with a dismissive “You just don’t understand gender” does no good at all. Especially if nobody else can understand it without detailed explanations that don’t seem to be forthcoming from those with something to conceal - like a penis.

Damn, one more thing on which we disagree.

Not locked away - executed. IMO.

But that’s a whole 'nother debate, isn’t it?

Regards,
Shodan

Did Gwen Araujo present as a biological woman? Do you have some proof of this, or are you just guessing? I’ve read nothing that indicates that she ever claimed to possess female reproductive organs or an XX chromosomal pattern, or that she ever said she was “born a girl”. Unless she did, she was not presenting as a biological woman, she was just presenting as a woman. And if she honestly thought of herself as a woman, there’s nothing deceptive about that.

I think it is deceptive to fail to mention to someone that you might want to beat them to death after you have sex with them, though. Of course, people who admit to being murderous scum up front probably don’t get laid too often. But you seem to believe it’s the transsexual kid who was in the wrong, because she lied about something really important, like having a penis, rather than something trivial, like being willing and able to murder someone because they have a penis. I guess it doesn’t matter to you that this underaged teenager never would have agreed to have sex with the defendants if she’d known it would lead to her horrible death. Apparently failing to fully disclose information about your sexual identity is only wrong if you’re got some weird secret like being transsexual, not if you’re a nice, normal, homicidal heterosexual. Right.

I haven’t seen anybody address this issue yet precisely.

The fact that gender dysphoria exists is one of the best pieces of evidence that gender is NOT "nothing more than a socially defined construct of ‘typical behavior’, despite what many sociologists have been claiming for the last few decades.

If men and women’s brains do differ in some way, then it’s easy to see how gender dysphoria comes about. By some fluke a person is born whose brain is wired one way but whose genitals turn out the other way. That person knows he’s female, but he has a penis.

Ed

Lamia, that was a brilliant observation that I had completely missed.

I’m not even sure what you’re arguing now. I’m not deciding anything, transgenderedism has nothing to do with sexual orientation. Why would it? It’s a totally different thing. It’s right symptom of callous indifference to people’s feelingsin the dictionary.

See, nothing about sexual orientation.

“How is that different from someone using the word ‘he’ to refer to someone with XY chromosomes and a penis?” What are you talking about? Call such a person a “he”, what do I care? Especially if you’re superman enough to have knowlege of his genitals AND his chromosone arrangement upon meeting (how many people’s chromosones have you studied?). But if a male identifies as a woman, I’ll personally call that person a “she”. You can call her a “he” if you want, but I’d like to hear an explination as to how disregaurding and mocking her personal testimony regaurding her self-identification ISN’T a “symptom of callous indifference to people’s feelings”. And I’d feel just as comforatable refering to such a person (if she was attracted to men) as a “homosexual man” as you would refering to a pre-op male to female transgendered who was attracted to women a “heterosexual man” (which I assume is “not very”, since I’ve asked “Would YOU refer to her as a ‘heterosexual man’” twice and you still haven’t answered it).

No, definately not. But a hate crime has a specific motive not merely a specific target. Did the guy kill him because he was gay or because he was deceived and humiliated? Was the motivation for the murder a hatred at the passive homosexuality of the victim or the active betrayal and manipulation of a homosexual. Sure, he wouldn’t have been murdered if he wasn’t a homosexual, but that doesn’t mean he was murdered because he was a homosexual. The only possible way you could establish this as a hate crime in this particular case would be to prove the murderer had a history of hate crimes. Personally, even if that was the case I wouldn’t prosecute under hate crime laws.

Can you please point out what was previously stated that would provoke this post? First, where did you hear that Araujo actually did this (besides from the confused OP, who has more than one issues with reality), and second, who said that such deceptive actions were acceptable?

I’m not sure i agree with you here, although i certainly concede that there is plenty of room for different interpretations.

The key for me in this is the part of the statute that refers to the reason for the crime:

It seems reasonable, given what we know of the case, to conclude that the felony was committed due, at least in part, to the victim’s gender and sexual orientation. I know that, in a certain sense, you can make the argument that it was only the deception that caused the felony, but i believe (as, apparently, does the DA) that the deception only occasioned such a brutal response because of Araujo’s gender and sexual orientation.

Just my 2c.

My impression is that gay men derive sexual pleasure from mutually manipulating each other’s penises by hand and mouth and/or one inserting his penis in the anus of the other while the other masturbates, and that gay women derive sexual pleasure from orally or manually manipulating each other’s erogenous zones, particularly but not limited to labia and clitoris. The point is, they do this as men desiring sex with men and women desiring sex with women. A man who wishes for a woman to masturbate him, perform oral sex on him, and receive him anally (but not have genital intercourse with her) is doing nothing physical that the gay man isn’t, but the point is that he’s a man desiring sex with a woman.

In Gwen’s mind, she was a woman with the inconvenience of having a penis in place of a vagina, and desired sex as a woman with men. That she was physiologically limited to those “alternative sex acts” was an inconvenience, not a proof that she was “really gay.”

Too, we have to distinguish between true gender dysphoria leading to transgenderism, and the casual behavior of men. The young man whom Barb and I helped out whom I mentioned over in IMHO as having posed for gay sex pictures enjoyed (so he and his girlfriend told me) dressing in her sheer panties – his rather ample penis showing through the sheer fabric was a turn-on for her. But that was a bit of erotic foreplay to their sex life, which was “normal” (=standard heterosexual practice).

The point that seems to be difficult for many to grasp here is that people may internally feel themselves to be something other than what their body “says” they are. And that they will then try to live out what they feel themselves to be, and eventually undergo treatment to change their body into what they understand themselves to be.

And IMHO respect for them as individuals means that I use the term for them that is what they identify as, not what I in my almighty authority deem them to be on the basis of their external or genetic makeup. That’s why I went into that long excursus on what’s “real” in my last post – Gwen or Eve’s identification as a woman is as “real” as my awareness of God’s Presence – it’s what we individually “know to be true.”

Araujo presented as a woman, and felt that s/he had been such for a long time.
“Gwen, 17, was finally living as the female he always knew himself to be.” Click on the picture to see the cite. Also note that the word ‘he’ appears in the original article, which is an advocacy group focussing on GLBT crime.

Even GLBT advocacy groups apparently can’t keep their pronouns straight either. Go bother them.

It was things like this:

Did you mean this?

Sorry you missed it, but if you aren’t even going to read my responses, I will spare the hamsters and not bother to respond.

Regards,
Shodan

Didn’t anyone read my first post? Poly, what do you think-the soul of a woman in a man’s body? I hope that’s not offensive. It’s just the way I understand it.

I saw that. It wasn’t an answer to my question, though. I didn’t ask if you’d call the person a “he” or a “she”, as asked if you’d refer to her (or him, if you insist) as a “heterosexual man”.

They have to use “he” for legal reasons, otherwise they risk getting sued.

Until the person offically registers as female, they have to use male pronouns to describe them.

Shodan, I realize this may be hard for you to understand. I was very negative towards transgendered people myself until I began to study it more. Transgendered people are quite common and found all over the globe and in many parts of the world where they live normal lives and are respected members of their community. Perhaps you should go and read more about this before you come in here and say ignorant and hurtful things.

Yes, I know. But you claimed she was presenting as a biological woman, and that term indicates someone who was born physically female. Neither your cite, nor any other I have seen in reference to this case, suggests that Araujo ever falsely claimed to have been born physically female or to possess female genitals.

I don’t know why you’re so determined to paint this poor kid as some sort of scheming temptress. There’s no evidence that she ever willfully deceived anyone about her gender identity. There is little evidence that she ever had sex with the defendants and even less evidence that she initiated or even consented to any sex that may have occured. If the defendants are to be believed and they really did engage in consensual anal sex with Araujo, I think it is stunningly unlikely that it was only after one of their girlfriends looked at Araujo in the bathroom that they realized that Araujo had male genitals. Personally, I am inclined to believe the defendants never had sex with Araujo at all and murdered her just because they didn’t like the idea of a “boy” who went around “pretending” to be a girl. I think they made up the story about having sex with her in an attempt to gain sympathy and turn people against their victim, and it sure seems to have worked.

But even if Araujo had deliberately lied to the defendants in order to trick them into having sex with her when she knew full well they wouldn’t want to unless she lied to them, that’s a pretty small sin compared to having sex with someone and then beating her to death when you discover that she doesn’t have female genitals after all. People lie to get sex all the time, and while it’s not admirable behavior it should not come as a surprise to anyone if their casual sex partners are not always completely honest. That’s one of the risks of casual sex. If you want honesty, get a relationship first. If you don’t want a penis anywhere near you, at least take a look first. But whatever happens, you don’t gang up on a defenseless teenager and brutally murder her.

And this idea of your is based on, apparently, no evidence at all. Just because. :shrug:

I guess I agree too much with the second paragraph of your post to bother much about the first. With the caveat, as ever, that it applies as much to Araujo as to anyone else.

No, this does not justify his/her murder.

Regards,
Shodan

Whoops, I meant murder 1, not murder 2.

Guin, I for one apologize for not responding to your post. I’m not so sure that “souls have gender” – though such little evidence as we have would seem to suggest it. But my clear grasp of the situation is that some people “know” that they are “really” of the opposite sex as their chromosomes and often their external body form, including but not limited to genitalia, would seem to indicate to the casual observer. Suranyi had an interesting comment, up above on this page, that would seem to speak to what you are thinking.

Shodan, this may be beating a dead horse, but there are two points that stand out to me:

  1. In a social situation, I am not accustomed to demand that people I meet drop trou and produce a gene scan so that I will know what pronoun to use in referring to them. I treat them as what they “present as” – which appears to be PC-speak for “what they give an outward appearance of being.” When I finally met in person iampunha and his mother, I immediately perceived that he was a young man, handsome, with long hair and a robust build, and that his mother was a beautiful woman in what appeared to be early middle age, far younger appearing than what I suspect her true age to be. Each was dressed in clothing appropriate to the social situation and to the age and sex they appeared to be. I had absolutely no difficulty accepting them as what they presented themselves to be. Should I encounter an androgynous person whose name is Chris or Kelly or Jo(e), I would surreptitiously ask a third party for the necessary information. I’ve always conceived Eve to be a beautiful and witty woman, whose written work I respect, and the fact that she recently discussed her boyhood in various posts doesn’t change that opinion. The key point to me here is respecting people by accepting them as what they are or at least what they try to be.

I also started to address the distinction between casual misrepresentation and adolescent confusion about sexuality, on the one hand, and true gender dysphoria on the other. Gwen’s case is instructive, because it appeared that the Araujo child was for a time unsure of whether she was Gwen or he was Eddie, before finally settling on the female identity and attempting to live it out and “present” as a girl. But it’s my understanding, and I hope that one of the true transgendered people online will comment, that someone with true gender dysphoria is not confused in the slightest, unless you wish to say that anyone with the problem is indeed suffering from a psychological problem (and that’s your interpretation, if it is), but rather knows quite clearly what he or she feels like inside, and it’s being the opposite gender from what the body “says” about him/her. A parallel to how some young people will explore different sexualities before settling into what they actually feel right for them may be useful, though it does raise the spectre of confusion between sexual orientation and gender identification, which we’ve striven mightily to make the distinction between.

I really wish Eve or Kelly or another transgendered person would examine these concepts more thoroughly, as I am speaking as one who has read and attempted to intuit feelings, not as one who has ever had those feelings, and I have a very real concern that I am speaking quite firmly out of my ass rather than giving a clear interpretation of what such people really think and feel. But in the absence of that, all I can do is my best to interpret in these discussions what I’ve grasped of what they do say about what they think and feel.

My little theory’s got a more support than many I’ve seen floated around here. There’s no evidence other than the word of the defendants that they ever had sex with Araujo, and the details of their story seem improbable. That’s why I think they’re lying about something. If you want to put your trust in the confused story of a bunch of murderers as to the behavior of their victim then I suppose that’s your right, but I don’t see how that’s any more reasonable than my guess as to how things happened.