Dang, I was going to jump on that.
I’m not pro DP. Not even cases such as this one.
I want these men locked up forever, and studied to try and find what’s wrong with them to lead to such an inappropiate response.
If it can be helpful, in my case it’s less that I know I’m a boy, but more that I consider that I should have had a male body.
When I entered puberty at 11/12yo, I was totally shocked to see that I was growing breasts and having a period. It’s a sense of deep discordance between your physical body and your own body image. If I envisage how do I want to look, I see a flat chest, lots and lots of hairs on my legs/stomach/chest/face, narrow hips, fat distributed in a male pattern and male genitalia.
So from that feeling of “it should have been like that”, I came to the conclusion that I was identifyng as a boy, at 12yo found the word “transsexual” to describe me perfectly and at this moment decided that I would transition as soon as it would be possible following the protocol for that in my country. Or I would destroy myself sooner or later.
Yes that’s usually the good way of dealing with that. In the case of a very androgynous presentation, it is said that asking directly the person can be a nice touch.
Oh yes indeed! I know that when I first encountered transgendered people who were dealing, agonizing about what gender they were and/or if medically transitionning would be a good thing for them, I had a hard time understanding them because for me it was such a clear cut decision.
Now that I’m currently having a similar time about my sexual orientation, I understand them better though. It is not an easy place to be in.
I was going to stay out of the debate, but I couldn’t resist throwing in the following fact for the likes of Shodan to chew on:
When the fetus is first formed, it contains parts which could become either female or male gonads (genitals). In the absence of the proper hormone, the male parts will always disappear and the fetus will be left to develop as a female regardless of which chromosomes it contains. This is why it is often said that female is the “default” sex.
The human brain is affected similarly by exposure to hormones. The brain will also “default” to feminine in the absence of the proper stimulation. Also, the hormones which affect the brains development are different from the ones which affect the development of the gonads (they are in fact produced by the gonads themselves).
It can be said that there are two centers of differentiation: the reproductive system and the brain. In normal circumstances, XY genes will produce a hormone which leads to the development of male gonads. The gonads will then produce a different hormone meant to masculinize the brain. However, sometimes there is insufficient production of this hormone or the brain is, for some reason, insensitive to this hormone, and the brain fails to masculinize.
Failures of this sort (and analogous but slightly more complex failures for an XX fetus) are hypothesized by some researchers to result in what we know as gender dysphoria and homosexuality. In other words, men who are attracted to men or men who believe they are women experienced incomplete masculinization of their brains. (By the same token, women who are attracted to women and women who believe they are men may have experienced inadvertent masculinization of the brain.)
I simply wanted to illustrate that there really are three different areas involved in determining whether a child grows up to be a man or a woman: DNA, gonads, and the brain. While biochemical pathways exist to ensure that these three components develop in conjunction with each other, the mechanisms can and do fail. Whether these failures are the primary cause of gender dysphoria is yet to be determined, but these facts do indicate that certain members of this board need to re-evaluate their black-and-white conception of sex and gender.
Apologies ahead of time, I haven’t read most of this thread and I’m jumping in with both feet due to the request of ava.
Polycarp: As far as I know, gender dysphoria is the condition in which the person is confused/unsure of his or her gender identity; the person may be transgendered and not sure of it (as is often the case with TS early on, because society has the nasty habit of forcing gender rules from birth, and it’s difficult to even try to go against them). A transgendered individual is one who is biologically one sex, but identifies as the other.
To explain my perspective, I was born biologically male, but had issues with gender (as well as sexuality, which I’ll bring up later). My earliest recollections are all from the standpoint of a ‘confused’ (as I know the term, ‘gender dysphoric’), if anything ‘genderless’ child. It’s not something I grew into, or wanted to be, it’s been there since childhood.
Society doesn’t teach it’s children that such issues exist, so you can imagine my confusion when I realized that I was overstepping some lines when I decided that I was attracted to the “same sex” (I use quotes because I believe that no longer applies to me), that I preferred girls’ clothing and demeanor, etc.; my conclusion was that I must therefore be a homosexual, effeminate male.
Shortly afterwards I noticed that I was only attracted to males as a female; in other words, I would not date a gay man, EVER, because I didn’t want to be treated as a male in the relationship. I also noticed that I was attracted to females as well, and at this point I decided that I was a bisexual male with some weird tendencies. No one had taught me that there was even such a thing as transexualism, so there really wasn’t much else my prepubescent brain could come up with.
Araujo, by the way, since she identified as ‘female,’ would have been homosexual only if she was attracted to other females. A lot of people seem to be stuck on the notion that it’s who you’re attracted to that decides your sexuality, not you the person. Assuming Gwen was a ‘straight female’ (disregarding genitalia for the purpose of this explanation), she would have been ‘homosexual’ if she was attracted exclusively to females. She would have been ‘straight’ if she was attracted exclusively to males. As with my case, she wouldn’t have dated a gay man, as she was not a male and would not want to be treated as such.
Moving along.
After some later research into transvestitism and then stumbling across the term “transexual,” I decided that this was the category I fit into, and managed to meet up with some other transgendered folk on an IRC channel (which, unfortunately, no longer exists; it was a wonderful source of information and support). At this point, my label, as it were, would have been “transexual male-to-female”, or a female identity within a biologically male body.
AFAIK, research points to hormonal floods during pregnancy determine body development, and apparently a theory exists in which there are separate hormone washes for bodily development and brain (mental?) development, and that when a TS is under construction, the floods are different (either you get testosterone for the body and estrogen for the brain, or vice versa). But I’m just pulling this out of my nonexistant hat, so … yeah. Does anyone know what the hell I’m babbling about? I’m pretty sure I read this in a medical journal or something somewhere… (blurp. had to relogin/refresh to post, and bo989 just explained it. thank you ^^)
I’m a rather different case in that for some reason my body produces less testosterone and more estrogen than it’s supposed to (as I said, I’m biologically male). People have been confusing my sex or referring to me as an androgyne for most of my life, which brings me to my next point;
For those that are stuck on referring to biological males as “he” and females as “she,” then what would you call an intersexed person, or a hermaphrodite? “It”? What if you met someone, got to know them, and were utterly and completely convinced they were female (or male) and then discovered somehow that they had the sex organs of another, or had been born differently and had surgery? Do they suddenly become the other gender to you? Is a penis (or lack thereof) THAT important in determing whether you’re going to refer to (and treat someone) as male or female?
Gender is an identification; it’s who you are. Sex is what’s in your pants (or skirts, respectively).
As for Gwen’s murder being a hate crime, it’s filed as such not because she was a “homosexual male” or somesuch nonsense, it was a hate crime because she was murdered for her ‘difference.’ It doesn’t matter if you’re gay or TS or a Jew, to be killed for who you are is a hate crime. At least, if you fit into the correct categories applicable under state law…
The problem with gender pronouns is that first of all (as mentioned above), some people don’t fit into either. I finally came to this conclusion; I myself don’t readily identify as either male or female, and it’s not enough of an issue for me to bother correcting people. I have mental (as well as physical) characteristics of both. I’m comfortable with who I am, and if people are going to rag on me for it, they can go screw themselves.
To swerve onto a completely different train of thought, even GLBT groups aren’t “used” to TS yet. The movement for civil rights and acceptance really hasn’t gotten strong enough, either because there hasn’t been enough time, or enough TS willing to come out, or enough activists (TS or not). I do volunteer work at a GLBT center at my university, and was told that I was the first open “non-traditionally gendered” (yeah, I pulled that term out of my ass… shut up) person to show up in the last ten years or so. I’ve been there for about a year and a half now, and they’re still confused as to what to call me. A lot of what determines gender pronouns is your passability; we have some TS folk who aren’t passable yet, and people who work at the center will sometimes say “he” or “she,” then immediately realize what they’ve said and apologize profusely. That’s just how society is, and that’s understandable; the vast majority of people have a gender identity that matches with their biological sex, so it makes sense to make assumptions. It -doesn’t- make sense to stick with those guidelines when someone flat out says they don’t adhere to them, though.
My first really long post. Go me. Hope I shed some light. Apologies for any disjunctions, poor grammar, etc.; if anyone wants to discuss this with me further, please feel free to IM, email, whatever, since I really don’t check the boards that often.
- Her Androgynousness, Shiki the Great and Terrible
High Priestess, thank you very much for your firsthand testimony (and yeah, it did clear up some of my vocabulary problems, and give me better insight into how you as a transgendered person see things).
Bo, also one helluva post! Questions: Has the “brain sexualization” thing been proven or is it still in the state of “reasonable theory” – for lack of a better term – the sort of thing that is the best explanation for observed phenomena but requires more evidence for consensus agreement? I was under the impression it was the latter, but my reading on it was pretty limited and is several years out of date, so I’d be pleased to know that there’s consensus on the view among neurobehaviorists now. (And I know Ben has been working in this field; I’d very much like to see his take on it as well.)
= = = = = = =
Contemplating where this thread has gone with a back corner of my mind while discussing baseball with my wife before logging on this morning, I came up with a snippet of dialogue that may contain sufficient humor to make it worth posting here:
“So who is a woman by your definition?”
“Naturally.”
“But what if that person has a penis?”
“That only matters if you get to third base!”
Not wanting to hijack this thread, but this is an interesting point. We had a discussion about it about a year ago, here, if you’re interested.
And for a bit of second-hand stuff, I know an fellow who, when he hit puberty, welcomed all the feminizing physical changes, because he thought that it would actually make him “feel like a girl” and stop his dysphoria. He carried on with this “If I keep saying I’m a girl it’ll all work out” through a marriage, two pregnancies, and a divorce; within the past couple of years he’s finally gotten to, “I said I wanted to be a boy when I grew up when I was a kid, and damnit, I’m gonna”.
Polycarp: Sex differentiation of brain structures has been shown in a wide range of animals including humans. I think it is safe to say that the mechanism of differentiation I outlined (however simplistically) is accepted as “fact,” for the simple reason that research has moved on. Most of today’s research is focused on the behavioural consequences of incomplete differentiation, and take the mechanism of differentiation as a given.
I repeat however, that the consequences of the failure of this mechanism are not yet firmly established.
Interestingly, a quick search of the journals reveals studies which link incomplete brain differentiation to “preferred partner characteristics in homosexual males” (young vs. old and masculine vs. feminine) and, amazingly, “sex-typed toy play behaviour!”
I can provide links upon request.
Not to sound silly about the whole thing. I’m not here to dissuade the arguments that what was done was a terrible thing. But the entire notion of a Hate Crime contiunues to ellude me. I do understand a certain aspect of our culture wants to punish people who act in bigoted ways more severely, but isn’t the act of murder itself, or rape, or assault a hate crime? In fact most violent crime, not considering the facts about the age/race/gender/orientation of the involved parties is centered around hate of some sort.
I know this is a bit off topic, but i think it should be said that if criminals actually served legitimate sentences for the crimes they commit (and not these silly 7 years served for murder sentences we commonly see) the extra “hate crime” legislation wouldn’t be needed, crime is crime and should be treated accordingly.
Your confusion is shared by many, BurnMeUp. The philosophy behind hate crime legislation is not universally understood.
Originally, the aim of these laws was to protect those who, as members of a group, are more likely to be victimized because that group is an object of hatred by the victimizer. Members of these groups are far more likely to be victimized than the general public.
One example;
A gay man, or one who is perceived as gay, is far more likely to be assaulted by a roaming herd of gutless pigs than a hetrosexual man is under similar circumstances. Such as walking down the street.
Same goes for the black man who stumbles into the KKK rally.
They’re victims of the same kind of anti-social freak.
Part of me hopes those idiots who victimized Gwen spend quite a few years in prison, pay their way with their own charms, and then have to register as the sex offenders they are when released.
Peace,
mangeorge
>Why is it so important that everybody else respect your feelings that you are really ‘a woman trapped in a man’s body’, but not important at all that Araujo disrespected the feelings of others that they did not care to have sex with anyone with a penis and XY chromosomes? Why don’t they get to determine that as part of their gender identity?<
From now on, before I even kiss a woman, I’ll be sure to grope her genitals first. “Just checking to make sure you aren’t an AIDS infected faggot in a dress.”
I think that’s an excellent policy, Stitch. Whatever’s gonna get you Maced the most.
Tell you what, I’ve never run genetic tests on my wife to see if she’s XY or XX or even XXX(called meta-female, IIRC) or even XXXX(called mega-female, IIRC) or XXY(forget what that’s called), or XXXY(forgot that one too). Quite frankly, I’m certain you haven’t either. Nor have 99.999999999999999999% of the people on the planet throught history(given that such testing was only a modern development and is still extremely rare). So let’s just drop the “XY” versus" XX" chromosomes as the determining factor for hetero versus homosexual preference shall we? If no one ever knows the true genetic makeup of thier partners, then it is fallacious to insist this is a piece of the criteria they use to select them. This is about presentation, not genetics.
All the evidence I’ve read shows that Gwen was psychologically(and if the hypothesis on orientation/gender identity being based on hormonal influence during gestation is corrrect, the she was also physiologically, in some aspects) female. She sought relations with heterosexual males because she was heterosexual. She seemed to have the misfortune to have had too high a testesterone level during her development as a fetus and developed a male reproductive system instead of a female reproductive system.
Now here’s the key point. We know that hormone levels during gestation determine gender and genetics USUALLY determine hormone levels. If, for a certain period during an individual’s gestation, this hormone balance was off, and they developed one aspect of their physiology in contrast with the rest of their development, WHY does that single abberation, to your mind apparently, dictate who that person is, or who they may be attracted to/have relations with without being dishonest? Let me break that long sentence down with an example.
Baby L, XX genes. During brain development, has an appropriate amount of estrogen(or more accurately, a low enough amount of testesterone) to develop a female brain structure. Now, assume orientation is also controlled in this manner and at this point(still unproven, but it seems reasonable (to me at least)) the person’s orientation develops. Again, low testesterone levels lead to a heterosexual orientation. Now, the reproductive system begins to develop. Somehow, doesn’t really matter how, testesterone levels rise and the fetus develops male reproductive organs.
After birth, this child is female by genetics(XX), and female by brain structure, heterosexual by orientation. BUT, the child has a penis.
What gender is this person? Continuing with our assumption orientation is decided by hormone levels during development, we can also assume this person would be attracted to straight males and would play the role of the female in the relationship. If you don’t like this assumption, then just pretend for the sake of arguement that this is the case. Is this person homosexual, or heterosexual? Why?
Enjoy,
Steven
This person would be a preoperative male-to-female transsexual. Whether or not she chooses to get the surgery (if she can afford it—it is still not covered by insurance) is up to her.
Would this person be gay? Would it be dishonest of this person to present themselves to a heterosexual male potential partner as a heterosexual female? Would it still be dishonest after sex-reassignment-surgery?
Most of these questions are aimed at people who are sticking by the definition of gender and orientation being tied to genetics and genetalia. I still appreciate comments from others though.
Enjoy,
Steven
:mad: Wow. I’m not 100% familiar with Great Debate rules, but is that allowed? Never mind SDMB, is that allowed by the rules of civil society?
Truly shocked.
To be honest Mtgman, I found it difficult to follow most of your post. However, I thought I would point out one critical mistake. Brain structure is determined after the gonads differentiate, not before.
I’m sure I knew that at one point. Sorry about the timeline confusion. I’m not sure it’s a critical mistake, if you reverse the order of events, and don’t change the events themselves, then you’ve got the same circumstances. I can see how it would make it even less likely to have a female brain develop if male gonads(which would be producing testesterone) are present, but that doesn’t rule it out.
If a fetus is developing which is genetically XX, and the hormone imbalance occurs during gonad development, producing a penis and other male reproductive system organs, but the imbalance is not present during the brain structure development then you’ve got the same situation. XX genes, Female brain structure, Male reproductive organs. Physiology is confused. Why should the outward physiology(a penis) trump the inner physiology? Why would a person following their inner physiology be considered deceptive?
Enjoy,
Steven
Shallow or not, the fact of the matter is that I personally am not attracted to female bodies. Breasts and vaginas do not turn me on, so before I were to get physical with some guy, I want to know that I’m not going to be feeling or seeing any breasts and vaginas.
If you want to call that unenlightened and say I’m bigoted or closed minded for such things being a deal breaker, then go right ahead and say that. It won’t alter the fact that I’m not turned on by female sex organs, nor will it change the fact that I’m not about to have a sexual relationship with someone who possesses them. My sexual orientation is just as valid as everyone else’s, and I’m just not going to be into the female-to-male pre-op transsexual who presents as a man but has the body of a woman. I can’t bring myself to feel sorry about that either.
Let me add a :mad: or two (or more):
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Stitch, my friend, i’d devote a Pit thread to you, but your own statment damns you quite sufficiently.