Transsexuals and the "gender assigned at birth" phrase

[Una_Persson]

I guess I can link to my article I researched a few years ago (it’s a couple of years out of date, and does not include the most recent events of the 2016 Olympics, where a possibly intersex (not transgender) athlete was alleged to have had an advantage in an event.

Some key pages for those short on time.

Page 5: Let’s get physical.

Page 6: The fallacies and fables.

Page 7: Where could there be a case for an unfair advantage?

Note that at no time have I posted that I support transgender athletes who have NOT undergone testosterone blockers and estrogen therapy competing with natal women. No one on this message board has actually proposed such a thing would happen, to my knowledge, except (ironically) for the anti-transgender crowd.

[HurricaneDitka]

@Lemur866

It’s also pretty funny that the gender essentialists are oh-so concerned with women’s sports, but also make sure to tell us that women’s sports are boring and for losers and something nobody should care about.

If this was directed at me (I’m the one that said the WNBA is boring), would you mind explaining what a “gender essentialist” is?

[HurricaneDitka]

@tomndebb

“Allowed” is the correct verb.
You are free to post your beliefs and opinions, even when they clearly are factually wrong, forcing others to continually correct them because we do not apply prior censorship to posts, here.
On the other hand, those who find themselves continually having to correct your errors of fact are also free to express their annoyance at the need to correct your errors of fact that you hold as such Trumpian beliefs. Trump did win the election. Despite that, crime, that he claims is rising, has still been falling since the 1990s; Anthropogenic Global Warming is still a genuine phenomenon even if he stupidly claims that it is a Chinese hoax, there have still been no acts of terror committed in the U.S. by refugees from the seven countries in which he does not have investments that he is trying to ban, and your beliefs about transgender issues continue to be factually wrong in every post you submit.

If you’re going to lecture someone about factual accuracy, you should get some yourself. “there have still been no acts of terror committed in the U.S. by refugees from the seven countries …” is not correct. The Ohio State University terrorist attack was carried out by a Somali refugee.

[Shodan]

@Una_Persson

Page 6: The fallacies and fables.

Your article mentions -

That having been said, it’s entirely possible men and women could compete much more evenly if more sports went on a weight and size class, similar to boxing and wrestling. This actually makes sense, especially if you consider boxing as an example – to quote from Adair, “One would never think of comparing Sugar Ray Leonard to Muhammad Ali. One weighed sixty pounds more than the other…Yet the top female tennis player is often compared to the top male tennis player, (‘Yeah but, she could never beat him”) who usually outweighs her by sixty pounds.”

That’s pretty obviously not the case, since in sports that already use weight divisions, like (as you mention) boxing and wrestling, as well as Olympic lifting and judo and powerlifting and MMA, the performance of women compared to men in comparable weight divisions is nowhere near even.

Compare, for instance, the world records in powerlifting in the 123-lb. division, a division that exists for both menand women. The world record for women in the raw squat is 369. For men, it is 639. The raw total record for women is 981. For men, 1339.

So you don’t need to compare Sugar Ray Leonard to Muhammed Ali. Just compare him to a female athlete of the same size - he will out-perform her 999 times out of a hundred.

And even without weight classes, male athletes of comparable size out-perform women. Karsten Braasch is about 5’11" and weighs about 161. He played the Williams sisters, Serena, who is 5’9" and about 155, and Venus, who is 6’1" and 165. He played them one set each, consecutively, and won both sets easily. (He was ranked about 203rd in the world at the time).

Weight divisions aren’t going to make any difference.

Regards,
Shodan

[mikecurtis]

i know this may sound rude, but who cares? its just sports!

people are facing all kinds of obstacles in the real world (yes i said it, real world, dont forget sports are just games after all) from being denied jobs to harrassment on the street (just to name two) just because of who they are! i think we should concentrate on the big picture first - like making sure that ***all ***people enjoy life liberty and the pursuit of happiness! once thats done we can figure out a way for your daughter to be able to play a game fairly!

sorry if this rant seems out of place, but c’mon people!

mc

[mikecurtis]

besides, if anyone thinks that professional or semi-pro (or even college) sports is played anywhere remotely fairly up until this point, then you havent been paying attention.

mc

[Una_Persson]

@Shodan

And even without weight classes, male athletes of comparable size out-perform women. Karsten Braasch is about 5’11" and weighs about 161. He played the Williams sisters, Serena, who is 5’9" and about 155, and Venus, who is 6’1" and 165. He played them one set each, consecutively, and won both sets easily. (He was ranked about 203rd in the world at the time).

Weight divisions aren’t going to make any difference.

Weight divisions are just one idea thrown out there - I think I noted (can’t open it from phone right now) that it could lead to additional problems, and is no panacea. I agree completely with your tennis assessment (and also find it strange that that is the situation with the Williams sisters).

The over-arching point is that if transgender women athletes have such a huge advantage because of their “male bone structure” or whatever people can point to…it’s not borne up at all by experience. The principal cases where gender-crossing athletes have been a concern are intersex athletes.

Now on the other hand, one can argue whether or not there could still be an issue at the high school or junior high varsity level. Here again, I have to say for transgender persons who have been on anti-androgens and estradiol for at least a year, that doesn’t seem to be a legitimate concern. I cannot say it will never happen nor that there will not be outliers here and there, but really it’s just not a sweeping phenomenon by any stretch.

IME with perhaps 40 transgender female athletes in high school that I know of or have known in the local area, not a one has been anything more than a 3rd-place finisher in a women’s track event. I know of a couple of basketball players that do OK, but they are by no means the stars of their team.

I’ve given examples of my insane strength, stamina, and other loss of physical ability when I went from being low-E low-T intersex to high-E transgender intersex. Where once I could pick up and carry 2 40-pound sacks of cat litter without trouble, I struggle to lift even a 20-pound sack for very long. My fencing ability decreased significantly - I was an “E” contender as the old me, after transition I felt like my fencing jacket was made of lead, and my weapons too. I lose my breath easily and where once I could fence for hours, maybe 30-40 bouts in a row, now after 5 I have to sit down and really draw on my reserves. It took me an entire 6 months of tennis last year to build myself up to playing 3 sets. Whereas I used to do 5 sets without even resting.

[Lemur866]

@HurricaneDitka

If this was directed at me (I’m the one that said the WNBA is boring), would you mind explaining what a “gender essentialist” is?

Come on, even you have to admit that it’s kind of funny for someone to worry about women’s sports being ruined by transsexuals, but can’t resist pointing out that women’s sports are boring and stupid.

If women’s sports are boring and stupid, who cares if transsexuals ruin them?

The real answer is that in regular everyday women’s sports, it doesn’t matter if the occasional man in a dress slips through. It’s just for fun, you go play softball and then go out for beers afterwards.

It’s different in elite sports, of course. It strikes me that if most transgender or intersex women are excluded from elite women’s sports, that’s just the way it is. Men get excluded from elite men’s sports for arbitrary reasons all the time, and while it sucks not to make it to the show, just about everyone never makes it to the show.

There may be a few sports where elite men and women can compete evenly, but only a few. None of the stars of the WNBA could even warm the bench in the NBA, as everyone is aware. On the other hand, both my sisters play on a woman’s hockey team, but one of them has played on a men’s team as well because the women’s league wasn’t competitive enough. She wasn’t the worst player either. But that’s a rec league, open to anybody, no matter what shape you’re in.

Anyway, I hope that’s enough hijack on women’s sports, and looming threat of transsexualism to our precious daughters and sisters.

As for “gender essentialist” that just means somebody who is convinced that a man is a man and a woman is a woman, and you know them when you see them. A man can’t be like a woman, and a woman can’t be like a man, that’s against God and Nature. Men have XY chromosomes and penises and broad shoulders and produce sperm and have whiskers and have sex with women and wear pants and play with trucks. Women have XX chromosomes and ovaries and tits and get pregnant and have sex with men and wear dresses and play with dolls.

Anyone who doesn’t match those ideas is some kind of freak, who only pretends to do it because they hate God, or their Dad, or whatever.

[Doubticus]

@DerekMichaels00

If both race AND gender are “just constructs” according to liberals, why not both?

Indeed, why not I say.

[HurricaneDitka]

@Lemur866

Come on, even you have to admit that it’s kind of funny for someone to worry about women’s sports being ruined by transsexuals, but can’t resist pointing out that women’s sports are boring and stupid.

If women’s sports are boring and stupid, who cares if transsexuals ruin them?

The real answer is that in regular everyday women’s sports, it doesn’t matter if the occasional man in a dress slips through. It’s just for fun, you go play softball and then go out for beers afterwards.

It’s different in elite sports, of course. It strikes me that if most transgender or intersex women are excluded from elite women’s sports, that’s just the way it is. Men get excluded from elite men’s sports for arbitrary reasons all the time, and while it sucks not to make it to the show, just about everyone never makes it to the show.

There may be a few sports where elite men and women can compete evenly, but only a few. None of the stars of the WNBA could even warm the bench in the NBA, as everyone is aware. On the other hand, both my sisters play on a woman’s hockey team, but one of them has played on a men’s team as well because the women’s league wasn’t competitive enough. She wasn’t the worst player either. But that’s a rec league, open to anybody, no matter what shape you’re in.

Anyway, I hope that’s enough hijack on women’s sports, and looming threat of transsexualism to our precious daughters and sisters.

As for “gender essentialist” that just means somebody who is convinced that a man is a man and a woman is a woman, and you know them when you see them. A man can’t be like a woman, and a woman can’t be like a man, that’s against God and Nature. Men have XY chromosomes and penises and broad shoulders and produce sperm and have whiskers and have sex with women and wear pants and play with trucks. Women have XX chromosomes and ovaries and tits and get pregnant and have sex with men and wear dresses and play with dolls.

Anyone who doesn’t match those ideas is some kind of freak, who only pretends to do it because they hate God, or their Dad, or whatever.

If you think I care about women’s sports, you have me confused with someone else. I don’t care.

If you think I’m a “gender essentialist” you are also confused. Please see post #68.

[DerekMichaels00]

@Lemur866

If women’s sports are boring and stupid, who cares if transsexuals ruin them?

maybe boring to watch on TV, but not boring for kids to get recruited to top colleges and universities; or to help them get jobs after (bc companies give athletes preference in hiring), or just keeping the kid in shape.

Just as there are parents who have their kids start studying for the SAT at ages 10 and 11, or coding/programming at that age (so they can study CS/ECE easy at university), there will be parents making their boys into girls to the same ends; get their kids into a better college (or go to college with less tuition, if any) and ultimately a better job/career at any cost.

[iiandyiiii]

@DerekMichaels00

maybe boring to watch on TV, but not boring for kids to get recruited to top colleges and universities; or to help them get jobs after (bc companies give athletes preference in hiring), or just keeping the kid in shape.

Just as there are parents who have their kids start studying for the SAT at ages 10 and 11, or coding/programming at that age (so they can study CS/ECE easy at university), there will be parents making their boys into girls to the same ends; get their kids into a better college (or go to college with less tuition, if any) and ultimately a better job/career at any cost.

That’s not how people become transgender. It’s been explained multiple times but you seem uninterested, presumably because of the intense hatred you have demonstrated by the language you use about transgender people.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@DerekMichaels00

there will be parents making their boys into girls to the same ends

Any day now!

[Bone]

@iiandyiiii

That’s not how people become transgender. It’s been explained multiple times but you seem uninterested, presumably because of the intense hatred you have demonstrated by the language you use about transgender people.

Please do not personalize arguments and/or motivations in this fashion.

[/ moderating]

[Una_Persson]

@DerekMichaels00

maybe boring to watch on TV, but not boring for kids to get recruited to top colleges and universities; or to help them get jobs after (bc companies give athletes preference in hiring), or just keeping the kid in shape.

You linked to an opinion piece on Forbes…as a…cite? Huh.

This reflects a complete and utter ignorance of how transgender persons are treated in the workplace, hiring, promotion, firing, etc. I can just imagine the conversation now with a 16-year old boy:

Dad: “Hey Timmy, if you can play the long con and convince a therapist and physicians to diagnose you after 6 months of expensive counseling, and then start estrogen and anti-androgens and reshape your body and become sterile, you can then lose most of your friends and alienate part (sometimes almost all) of your family, be subjected to taunting, bullying, and abuse on a horrifying scale, and get lots of notoriety you never wanted!”

Timmy: “Um…what’s the upside?”

Dad: “Why then you can compete as a star athlete in girl’s basketball or field hockey or something, so you can have a 1/100 chance of getting a full-ride athletic scholarship! Sure you’ll lose tons of muscle mass from the weapons-grade level of estrogen and having almost no testosterone, but somehow your very slightly thicker bones will make you strong like bull! Stronger than the Incredible Freaking Hulk! Bones!”

Timmy: “Dude, what the fuck?”

Dad: "Then 4 years later when you graduate, you can put on your resume that you are an athlete, rawr! Then when the job recruiters and interviewers are all laughing at you for being transgender and making jokes about you as they shred your resume, they’ll at least note your athletic prowess! ‘Poor Frankenfurter thought HE was going to get hired here? I don’t care how many free-throws HE made as a Junior. Puh-lease.’ "

Timmy: “Dad, you’re drunk again. Get help.”

[mikecurtis]

as i’m sure you already know, alot of people equate transvestism with transsexualism. if youre feeling like a girl, today, all you have to do is put on a dress and today you are a girl. they dont understand or dont believe its much more complex than that.

mc

[Lemur866]

@HurricaneDitka

If you think I care about women’s sports, you have me confused with someone else. I don’t care.

Yes, I understand you don’t care about women’s sports. So why do you care if men wearing dresses ruin women’s sports?

[Miller]

@Lemur866

Yes, I understand you don’t care about women’s sports. So why do you care if men wearing dresses ruin women’s sports?

He doesn’t. Why do you think that he does?

[Guinastasia]

@DerekMichaels00

maybe boring to watch on TV, but not boring for kids to get recruited to top colleges and universities; or to help them get jobs after (bc companies give athletes preference in hiring), or just keeping the kid in shape.

Just as there are parents who have their kids start studying for the SAT at ages 10 and 11, or coding/programming at that age (so they can study CS/ECE easy at university), there will be parents making their boys into girls to the same ends; get their kids into a better college (or go to college with less tuition, if any) and ultimately a better job/career at any cost.

Dude, what is with your obsession with trans people? Why does it bother you so fucking much? So some people are trans – big deal. It’s not affecting you in any way.

[Lemur866]

@HurricaneDitka

I think the concern is that traditionally-feminine-body-typed women would get pushed out of most competitive sports if we didn’t have separate leagues for women. If transgendered women are allowed to bring all the physical advantages of being a man to a woman’s sports league, it’s the start of the process. I don’t think it’d be all that common today if it’s allowed, but who knows. People do weird stuff for fame sometimes.

But that’s just a guess. I’m all for unisex competitive sports anyways. The WNBA is boring.

This is the source of my “but what about men in dresses ruining stupid and boring women’s sports?” amusement.

If you don’t care about women’s sports, why bring up the fact that transsexuals are going to ruin women’s sports?