Transsexuals and the "gender assigned at birth" phrase

[Una_Persson]

@DerekMichaels00

There is one only being who “assigns gender”: his name is almighty God with his tremendous grace.

You’re not even trying now. Well, you are in one sense of the word at least…

[Pantastic]

@DerekMichaels00

There is one only being who “assigns gender”: his name is almighty God with his tremendous grace.

If you believe that gender is assigned by God, then why are you dictating what assignments he can make by denying that he can assign a gender that doesn’t match physical sex? Why are you denying that he assigned genders that don’t match biological sex in societies that have more than two genders? Christians like to talk about being humble, but at the same time seem to like to tell God what he is and isn’t allowed to do, and to contradict him in public.

[Lemur866]

@DerekMichaels00

There is one only being who “assigns gender”: his name is almighty God with his tremendous grace.

[citation needed]

Here’s the thing though. If you’re happy with the way God made you, then good for you. If you’re unhappy with the way God made you, but you think God must have done it for a reason and you can’t go against God’s Will for you, then good for you. But what if you’re unhappy with the way God, or Nature’s God, or Nature, or blind chance made you, and you don’t think that there’s any particular reason God expects you to just accept the burden he gave you?

My Dad got cancer. If you believe in God, you believe it was God’s Will for my Dad to get cancer. But my Dad got radiation and chemotherapy and surgery. Was that against God’s Will? But if all things are accomplished according to the Will of God, then why wasn’t it God’s Will that my Dad get treatment for his cancer? I didn’t notice any lightning bolts striking down oncologists at the hospital.

If some human actions are according to God’s Will and others are against God’s Will, then how do we tell the difference between the two? I understand that there are some human beings who are quite willing to explain what God’s Will is, but there’s a difference between a human being telling me what he claims is God’s Will, and God’s Will.

[Una_Persson]

@Pantastic

If you believe that gender is assigned by God, then why are you dictating what assignments he can make by denying that he can assign a gender that doesn’t match physical sex? Why are you denying that he assigned genders that don’t match biological sex in societies that have more than two genders? Christians like to talk about being humble, but at the same time seem to like to tell God what he is and isn’t allowed to do, and to contradict him in public.

Precisely. In my religious lectures I do, I call this the “God in a box” concept. Christians that believe fervently that God created everything from spiral galaxies to pygmy shrews, but when it comes to creating a transgender woman WHOA, SLOW DOWN THERE, NO WAY COULD GOD DO THAT! :rolleyes:

[raventhief]

@DerekMichaels00

There is one only being who “assigns gender”: his name is almighty God with his tremendous grace.

So if a child is born with a cleft palate, is it against God’s will to fix it? To treat illness that he hath “assigned?” To take medicines designed to combat bacteria that God also created?

[Revenant_Threshold]

@DerekMichaels00

There is one only being who “assigns gender”: his name is almighty God with his tremendous grace.

An unBiblical viewpoint.

[QUOTE=Galatians 3:28]
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
[/QUOTE]
I have to admit, I was assuming you were a Christian; am I wrong on that? I apologise if so.

[K2500]

@Kimstu

ISTM that the best and most effective “procedure to address that” is on the rest of the world, and it looks like this:

Rest of the world: Recognize that a statistically rare subset of women have penises, or once had penises, and that most of the time nothing about this fact is a damn bit of anybody else’s business.

Straight men in particular: Recognize that being attracted to a transgender woman does not make you, or any other straight man, gay. (Not that there would be anything wrong with it if you were gay, or that it would be anybody else’s business. Tbh the overwhelming majority of people in the world don’t care in the least whom you want to fuck, anyway.)

Straight men in particular: Recognize that no longer being attracted to a transgender woman once you know she has/had a penis does not make you, or any other straight man, a jerk, as long as you don’t act like a jerk to her about it. In particular, NO VIOLENCE.

Straight men in particular: Recognize that continuing to be attracted to a transgender woman once you know she has/had a penis still does not make you, or any other straight man, gay.

Rest of the world: What did I just say about none of this being a damn bit of anybody else’s business?

There, done and dusted. The sooner we all just grow up and stop making a fuss over a perfectly natural and normal—not common, but normal—aspect of human physical diversity, the less trauma there’s going to be for everybody in future.

All very fine(and emphatic) points, though I was asking about current procedure. Mostly because I think it will be a long, long, long time before you see that type of acceptance. Especially outside of major population centers. Humanity has been struggling for at least forever on the “can’t we just all get along” front.

@Una_Persson

My community seems more split on this than ever before.

My viewpoint is and always has been “err on the side of caution” and inform your prospective date as early as possible. In all the dates that all the transgals I know have been on, NO cisgender male has stayed in the relationship after a revelation after not knowing from the start. Whereas I know of many relationships between cisgender males and transgender women where both went into the relationship fully informed. So it seems to me one may as well inform early.

Others feel the opposite, that you are under no obligation to tell anyone at any time. I feel this is incredibly unwise, and very likely to lead to violence. I do not, however, feel there is a “moral imperative” to inform without having been asked. Only an imperative from the standpoint of not being beaten into a pulp, or worse, by an angry male.

(Women who are “surprised” by transmen who are stealth almost never have a violent reaction. I’ve never heard of an instance locally, but I’m sure that it has happened.)

Very down to earth earth explanation. Thank you. I can’t even imagine the conversations. Risk management must be quite the ordeal.
Of the men I know a great many would react, if discovered after any intimate contact, very violent indeed. A small number might react violently just on finding out, but I’d probably put them in the -assholes anyways- catagory though.

As far as discrimination there’s the obvious; employment, military service, perhaps medical (especially psychological).

Where do you find the less obvious forms of discrimination? I ask as a straight white male living in the American southwest outside of a major metro. I have absolutely no idea, and have never met a transsexual person and known it.

[iiandyiiii]

@K2500

Of the men I know a great many would react, if discovered after any intimate contact, very violent indeed. A small number might react violently just on finding out, but I’d probably put them in the -assholes anyways- catagory though.

I think you can safely put anyone who would react violently upon finding out someone is transgender, no matter when, in the “assholes anyways” category.

[Una_Persson]

@K2500

Very down to earth earth explanation. Thank you. I can’t even imagine the conversations. Risk management must be quite the ordeal.
Of the men I know a great many would react, if discovered after any intimate contact, very violent indeed. A small number might react violently just on finding out, but I’d probably put them in the -assholes anyways- catagory though.

I’m the diametric opposite of 99% of transgender persons out there, in that because I’m an activist (a real one, not a "Facebook activist) when I’m at a club and a woman or man comes up and introduces themselves and asks the tell-tale questions (such as “hey, are you alone?” or “do you want to go to my car and fuck?”), one of the very first things I tell them is “BTW, I’m a transgender woman. Does that make a difference?” Typically it doesn’t - the gals who try to pick me up either know what I am (rarely, unless they ask someone), or they just don’t care.

If they’re polite in their refusal, I’m not offended in the least.

Where do you find the less obvious forms of discrimination? I ask as a straight white male living in the American southwest outside of a major metro. I have absolutely no idea, and have never met a transsexual person and known it.

I guess it’s the way you’re treated subtly in social circles, where people do things that deny your gender. At a charity walk I was at with Fierra, there were several of her co-workers there (who all knew me, especially as I did a webinar for her company to like 10,000 employees; can’t un-ring that bell!) and there was a brand new female employee joining us all for the charity walk. The night went on and in casual conversation trans advocacy came up, and the new gal was a little surprised (she had no idea) but seemed cool. At the very end of the night, after we’d walked for a few miles, it was time to say goodbye. New girl gave quick hugs to every single woman who walked in the group - all folks she had never met before. Then turned to me, hesitated…and held our her hand to shake.

The same as she’d done to all of the men.

I basically looked at her hand, turned away, and walked to my motorcycle without a word. What could be said, really.

Yes it hurt. A lot.

[Weisshund]

@Kimstu

In the first place,

I have no idea what you are arguing about?

I went and read about her, she had no idea anything was different for most of her life.
by upper parts i mean she has no uterus, she has a vagina, was born with it, and best i can tell she was born with breasts too?

No, it did not give any kind of xray, ultrasound etc of her body, but the info gave the impression that there was no development of testicles.
As i understand, it would be important to do something about them due to risk of cancer?

Anyway, i said that to me, the person was a girl, born a girl, physically a girl, came out the door that way, And you are having a hissy fit about it?
You want me to call her something else?
Confused.

[iiandyiiii]

@Weisshund

by upper parts i mean she has no uterus, she has a vagina, was born with it, and best i can tell she was born with breasts too?

I’m pretty sure no one is born with breasts…

[Weisshund]

@iiandyiiii

I’m pretty sure no one is born with breasts…

Huh?

Every mammal is born with them.
A males minuscule breast buds never develop into anything under normal circumstances.
Females do and are larger

And i am pretty sure you know what i meant anyways.

[raventhief]

She is genetically a male. Her body (for whatever reason) does not react to testosterone, so she is a woman. It’s not “one of her X chromosomes is broken.” She has one X and one Y.

[Weisshund]

@raventhief

She is genetically a male. Her body (for whatever reason) does not react to testosterone, so she is a woman. It’s not “one of her X chromosomes is broken.” She has one X and one Y.

Her X is broken in simple terms
I’m no biology PhD so i dont understand all the stuff in the articles on the condition
but basically the X is at fault for the condition, so in simple terms it is broken.
If something does not work, while there may be a great 200 page description of what is wrong with it, but in a word, it is broken.

And her body has reacted accordingly of it’s own accord.
She has a vagina that came of its own accord, breasts that came of their own accord
characteristically female features etc.

Yes i get it, she has an X dysfunctional or no, it is there floating around.
But since it’s systems are not working, she can not become male.
So, to me, she is a girl.

I have in my jaw 4th and 5th molar buds, looks odd on xrays
Yes, the buds are there, but they are not functioning, they never happened
so they are not teeth, they don’t count because they dont work.
i have 32 teeth not 40, and i am not neanderthal (well mostly not)

That’s about how i see her situation.

All mammals are female by nature, we are mammals
They have to become male, that is the job of mister X and his system, to change something into something it is not.

If he does not so his job, then he is just a genetic freeloader along for the ride
and the being remains female, at least in this case.
yes i realize sometimes he can do a drunken job and get things really botched up, but we arent talking about that at the moment.

[iiandyiiii]

@Weisshund

Huh?

Every mammal is born with them.
A males minuscule breast buds never develop into anything under normal circumstances.
Females do and are larger

And i am pretty sure you know what i meant anyways.

I suppose it just depends on definitions. In my understanding, breast growth depends on hormones, not biological sex (though obviously hormones have a lot to do with biological sex), and it’s actually pretty common for biological males to grow breasts to some degree during puberty.

But that’s unimportant to the discussion, and so was my quip.