This.
For baseball/softball summer before sophomore year of high school is reasonable time for joining a real travel team.
Why are there ‘travel’ teams, (NEVER heard of it here!), for 8yr olds at all? What advantage do they have over playing in town against local kids? (I mean besides being spendy and making the parents feel like their kid is ‘better’ in some way?) Why are there two leagues anyway?
Do the 8yr olds give a shit about this? Or just the parents?
This just occurs in wealthy areas? What?
It doesn’t have to be that idyllic. Little league isn’t THAT idyllic. Its still competitive and teams frequently stay together from year to year. Some of the parents are real jerk-faces that will heckle little kids on the field (even their kids, especially their kids).
But the commercialization of youth sports especially in areas where the parents can bear the freight of professional coaching has a lot of negative consequences. I can imagine games becoming less about fun and more about performance. Kids are ALREADY too focused on scores and who won or who lost without parents adding to it. And these travel teams live and die on their tournament performances. A very bad season for the “A” squad of a travel team frequently spells the end of a travel team as other travel teams swoop in and try to recruit their players with promises of better training and more winning. I’ve seen it. It sounds almost exactly the same as the pitch that got them onto the losing travel team to begin with. “hey, your kid is pretty good, he’s got a lot of natural talent and with a lot of hard work and the right kind of coaching he might get recruited to paly in college… we have a relationship with the baseball program at (insert school here)” So these travel teams stress winning and scores much more than is healthy for the development of good sportsmanship and character because they NEED these kids to win.
I think it started with private schools (a lot of them catholic schools) that were too small to field competitive teams and teams created to fill the gap between when “regular” little league ends (11-12) and high school begins.
The way I understand it, a lot of travel teams used to be loosely associated with the local little league and was basically their "graduating"all star team that was staffed by volunteers. Then some of these travel teams got really good and running them became a full time job and you couldn’t maintain the high level of competition without just volunteers so they hired professional coaches and the fees started to get higher and the travel teams and the local leagues grew apart. Then they started dipping into the pool of little league eligible players if they were good enough to play at the next level (letting them play 60% of little league games so that they would be eligible for little league tournaments). Then everyone wanted their kid on the travel team and the travel teams created “B” teams for the less talented players and charged them the same as the “A” team. The demand to be on the B team was so high that most travel teams have a “C” team. Then other local travel teams would develop and tell parents “hey, don’t put your kid on the “B” team with the scrubs, we think your kid’s an “A” team player and we will put him on our “A” team” and in fact a lot of times very good players got stuck on the “B” team because of personal relationships that “A” team parents had with the travel team manager (frequently from paying for lots of private lessons from the travel team staff). All the teams start to recruit the better 11-12 year olds and before you knew it they had 11-12 year old teams playing each other in the travel league. Then they dipped into the 10 year old pool to bring up kids that could paly with the 11-12 year olds and before you knew it there were enough 10 year olds for a 10 year old league, rinse repeat ad now you have 8 year olds playing on 9 year old travel teams and some 8 year old travel teams starting to pop up.
I wouldn’t be surprised if someone start a Travel T-Ball league sometime soon.
TLDR: some 8 year olds care, most don’t. Parents care more. And AFAICT it only happens in relatively affluent areas. Less affluent areas can’t support the critical mass of travel teams in any one sport to drive this dynamic.
My daughter started out doing gymnastics at a young age, just for fun. She liked it but didn’t really want to do meets and such. I wanted to keep her in the program a couple of times a week, but there was no such program after 5 or 6, you had to start coming more and do meets. We pulled her out of it.
I see the same thing in swimming, which is massive in parts of the DC area. I know a number of the coaches and it’s almost the same type of thing. There are teams for under 8/9 that meet a couple of times a week. Once they start to get older and they still want to swim they have to make a commitment to swimming 4-5 times a week around 10. After that there are teams that make it 11+ times a week. A lot of these kids get up at 4 in the morning before school and then have practice after school. I don’t really know of any year round teams that say come a couple of times a week. I know a few teams that have stroke work a few times a week but it’s not really the same.
Part of the problem is the parents too. I know at least one 6 year old that was told it’s ok to come to swim twice a week. Her parents didn’t like that and put her on another team where she was swimming 4-5 times a week. Seems like it’s way too much for kids.
Incidentally, our eldest daughter was invitec to join the competitive gymnastics team AND a local elite cheerleading squad.
She really is an exceptional gymnast, but she is 12 years old and has never been in the competitive stream before. It seems rather unlikely - I mean win the lottery unlikely - that a girl at the age of 12 who’s never been in competitive gymnastic before is a serious candidate for glory. But they would get a lot more money from us that way.
My ex wife had a cousin, who I’ll call Tim, who was elevated to the equivalent of a “travel team” in hockey. The kid was very small for his age and still is, so I am skeptical. I went to see a game once and he was about as much an elite hockey player as I am Secretariat. His slap shot from near the blue line barely reached the net. He should have been in house league having fun, but his Type-A-personality parents had been conned into paying a brajillion dollars to have him travel around with an “All-star” team.
[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi]
A very bad season for the “A” squad of a travel team frequently spells the end of a travel team as other travel teams swoop in and try to recruit their players with promises of better training and more winning. I’ve seen it. It sounds almost exactly the same as the pitch that got them onto the losing travel team to begin with.
[/QUOTE]
For kids as young as eight or nine this is just sad as hell.
And yet we have 7 travel teams for 8 year olds in a county with 3 little leagues. There are 9 travel teams for 9 year olds (the number of travel teams seem to level off at 9). These guys don’t travel outside the county for most of their games and play almost all their games within the county or with neighboring counties.
And that’s just the ones I know about.
I just want to boast for a moment because it just happened. My nephews dream actually DID come true. He was a talented pitcher from a very young age. He has spent the last 12 years in the minors. He was called up 10 days ago to the Texas Rangers. Just a few days ago his dream came true. He was brought in for the close against the Phillies.
Now, of course this does not happen for a majority of kids.
Ok, boasting over.
I don’t think it’s about the kids enjoying the game. it’s about the parents who are competing with each other and who all have visions of their kid being the next Jeter or Verlander.
which- statistically speaking- ain’t gonna happen.
it’s like with football. I hear stories from my co-worker; her stepson is in high-school football. the other side of his family (mother/stepfather) actually redshirted him for football reasons, hoping he’d be bigger and better than other guys in his grade. that nearly backfired since he’s a tree trunk and nearly got pushed out of the program for being too big. And they push this kid hard. he’s already had two serious injuries, and one potential concussion.
Look, people, over a million kids play high school football every year. Maybe 15,000 get into a top-tier college program. and of those, maybe a few hundred are drafted into the NFL every year. Are those odds worth sending your child down the road to CTE?
I tell all these parents: If you are really just looking for a sport to get your kid into an ivy, have them take up fencing. I went to high school with a girl who took up fencing at 13 and got into Columbia with it.
Frankly I pulled those numbers out of my ass. No matter what stat you can come up with, the odds of making any real money or earning a scholarship playing ball are astronomically against a player. Unless Junior is throwing 90 mph fast balls and hitting 500 foot home runs, I question investing all that money for an 8 year old to be on a traveling team.
As for getting into a better school, well thats nice and all except “better” often means more $$$$$ so how does that investment pay off.
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Again, are these parents really doing what’s best for their kids?
My parents wanted me to go to an Ivy League school, but I made a decision based on a gut feeling that [tiny college in midwest] felt like a better fit. Zero regrets.
Daughter ended up doing the exact same thing. Was all set to go to [hoity-toity school] but switched to [different tiny college in midwest]. Negative zero regrets.
And all the sports and “extracurriculars” counted for nothing. Except to the extent that they were fulfilling, and (are you listening, parents?)** FUN***!*
You hit a nerve with this post.
A cautionary tale:
I have two boys and both boys loved hockey (still do).
The oldest son played on a travel team then moved up to a higher age group. I seriously think he tanked the tryout. He played “house league” that season and I coached the team. After the season he said he had more fun playing hockey that season than he had in a long time. Our record was awful but I got more satisfaction that season because I saw the kids playing with intensity and improving (and having fun). At the end of the year I received a lot of gratitude from the kids and their parents.
That son was just graduated with a PhD from a top university. He plays (and has fun) playing in an adult league.
The second son was a highly skilled hockey player. He played on travel teams and went to a notable prep school where he played.
He never played in college and now has ADD from concussions he suffered. He cannot play hockey at any level although he loves the sport.
Little League killed baseball in America. Kids no longer have fun. Too many sit on the sidelines watching instead of playing and getting better. Sandlot baseball is about dead. That’s where kids had fun, everybody played and developed a love for the sport. I do a fair amount of traveling. I fly into a city and see all these beautiful baseball and softball diamonds. Nobody is playing on them. It’s such a waste.
Same thing with pond hockey. Yes, hockey demands more structure because ice is not as easy to provide as a field. Still, pond hockey is where a lot of stars started and developed their skills. The NHL Winter Classic (played outdoors in stadiums) is loved by the players because it takes them back to their days when they first developed their love and passion for the sport.
Be very careful about travel teams and how much potential your kid has. Travel teams are about useless before the kid is about 15. It’s at that age that you can begin to get a sense whether the kid has the passion and is willing to make the sacrifices necessary to move on to a higher level.
I think you have it exactly backwards. The difference between Little League and travel teams, is that Little League has mandatory play rules: everybody who comes to the field gets into the game. No exceptions. (Not everybody plays the same amount, but everyone is guaranteed at least 1 at bat and 2 innings on defense.)
So if you’re looking for fun, competition, good times with your friends and relatively low cost to the parents – you’re looking for Little League.
30 years as a LL coach and umpire.
It sounds like some of us have different definitions of “travel” teams. What a lot of people are describing are known here as “Club” teams, i.e. private clubs with coaches who have varying levels of qualifications and is more organized than Little League or Rec league teams. The latter teams are run by unpaid volunteers, some good, some just a kids mom or dad. They draw from a small area and play very locally. This is where all eight year old’s should be.
Club teams draw from a larger area and have (largely) more qualified coaching. They enter into a pyramid structure where a team generally starts at the bottom where most teams are and move up in a promotion/relegation system. Win your league (top three actually) and move up a level where there are fewer and better teams. The very top of the pyramid are the travel teams. The best players want to play for them and try out every year. Nobody’s spot is guaranteed. It is very cutthroat and you can spend thousands of dollars to watch your kid sit on the bench all year. In my average sized state of 5.5 M people there are around ten of these teams, or the best 150 players in the state. They travel to tournaments all over the country and this is where the big expenses come in. These kids might go to one tournament at U14 and U15 but if you’re still on the team at U16, get out the checkbook.
My opinion is there is nothing wrong with 11 year old’s getting better coaching and better competition. Younger than that seems to be a waste of time.
I still don’t get why anyone under HS age needs club training for baseball or basketball or softball. There are plenty of qualified coaches that volunteer for rec teams. If your kid is good, the clubs will come to you.
P.S. Kids really get attached to their teammates and if some stud moves in from CA or TX someone is going to get cut. I’ve witnessed this and it breaks your heart. Kids can take months to recover from it, if at all. Most just quit the sport rather than move down to a lesser team.
I’ll try to keep this to under a thousand words or so… I have three kids who played travel sports and are all now in or recently graduated college.
The two oldest play soccer and the youngest plays lacrosse so the experience won’t be exactly the same as for baseball but there will be lots of similarities. Both of my soccer players were recruited heavily and play on scholarship for their universities. The youngest was heavily recruited but decided on his own he wanted to focus on his education and not play in college (although he does play inter-mural).
It is very expensive and it is very time consuming. You and your kids will make great friends and also sometimes see the ugly side of people. You will also likely become well known to the local orthopedics. In soccer the levels are Recreational (Rec) with parent coaches who may or may not know anything about the sport. You sign up and you play (no tryouts or cuts). Rec Plus with mostly parent coaches but ones that know the sport and may have played in college. Tryouts are required and they play in local/state tournaments. Travel/Club, starting at eight and running through college with paid coaches and staff. There are usually three teams per age group. The top will travel regionally and nationally. Development where they are often aligned with a professional team… these are the top of the top. Both of my soccer players were in development academies.
Everyone starts in Rec. If you want to move up to travel you are somewhat of a late bloomer if you aren’t playing by 10. Top level travel and development teams are where the recruiting happens. My oldest (daughter) was on the state champion HS team and they would get 3 or so college coaches at a game, travel and development can get 50 plus at a good tournament/showcase. Development teams recently have made a rule that the player can not play on a HS team. My daughter verbally committed in the spring of her sophomore year to a full ride.
As far as soccer goes multi sports are discouraged (except possibly track).
Although everyone on my kids teams went on to play in college this is NOT TYPICAL.
And, our number one rule for playing is “the day you aren’t having fun is the day we move on to something else.” Many times I hoped and dreamed they would tell me they were no longer having fun. In the end though overall we did have fun.
I’ll be happy to go into more details if anyone wants, but my main points are it is expensive, time consuming, competitive, and not for everyone (kids or parents). Unfortunately there is no simple yes/no answer for if it is a good idea or not.
I’m not sure why this is in the pit… seems to have evolved into more of an IMHO thread
My three brothers and I all bailed out of the military base sports league when the coaches and other parents decided that “winning is the only fun” and then blatantly disregarded the keague rules requiring every team member to play. Yes, we had our parents’ full support in leaving for that reason.
I am personally against youth sports leagues as they are currently run in the United States. They are not school or youth clubs; they are training grounds for the professional leagues. That is why too many parents and coaches get so invested in the “win at all costs” mentality. I’ll probably get flamed for this, but here goes anyway: American youth sports leagues currently do not teach what they purport to teach; rather, they are just another form of child abuse.
If by “here” you mean Canada, there are most definitely travel teams in baseball, basketball, HOCKEY, and no doubt other sports throughout the country.
If you mean more specifically London, looks like the London Tecumsehs qualify (Sports Illustrated get there via the main page by clicking on “Competitive (Travel) Hardball”). Also the North London Nationals has Select teams, which sounds like the same thing; they apparently play a tournament this year in Orillia (far enough for you? :)) and I bet there are others as well.
On another note, I do get the nostalgia for the halcyon days when kids just played sandlot ball all day long, switched to football in the fall, hockey in the winter…and I certainly think there are some issues with organized sports for kids, especially travel sports for 8-year-olds. But lest we forget, the old ways weren’t 100% wonderful either. Letting the kids run things isn;t always a great idea. In a sandlot world (which was more my experience than organized sports) some kids don;t ever get to play or only get stuck in right field or maybe in DEEP right field if the teams are big enough (and then the lineup mysteriously changes when it’s time for them to get their bats). Kids are bullied, maybe deliberately injured. Bigger, stronger kids make all the plays, with highly-skilled shortstops motoring out into center field to grab the ball before the less-skilled CF can grab it. Romanticizing the sandlot is easy, but the sandlot had problems too.
Eh, bad coaches and bad parents are always going to be around. Being affiliated with a school or a rec league. Ask an umpire or ref their experiences. Or just go to a HS football or basketball game. Some of those kids take incredible abuse.
Ironically, (in soccer anyway because that’s my experience) the Developmental Academies, who are affiliated with a pro team with the ultimate goal of developing pros, do the best job. They all use the European model of developing skills through drills and practice and hardly care about games or winning. As mentioned above, many of the elite teams tell their kids not to play in HS due to bad coaching and the risk of injury. Kids are much more likely to get hurt playing against lower skilled players than other elite ones.