Trevor Noah leaving the Daily Show

But my thought is to maybe bring the conversation back around to the OP.

The practices you’re implementing are laudable, but they seem impractical in the extant case.

If nobody knows a person, then it’s virtually impossible they’ll be in the consideration set to replace Trevor Noah on The Daily Show.

If you do know them, then you probably automatically know a few epithetical and immutable things about them.

Which, IMHO, leaves the conscious/unconscious bias thing unaddressed.

And difficult TO address.

But still important.

Sez me :wink:

In all honesty I feel like this debate about whether race should considered when hiring a new host for The Daily Show is pointless. Mostly because I feel it’s like having a debate on who should be the captain on a sinking ship.

How many times over the past few years have you read or heard a plaintive “at last” from someone glad that they see someone who represents themselves on television, or in a classroom, or as an executive, or in sports, or a movie hero, or as a politician, or many other roles that have historically been denied to minorities? My experience is in the dozens or hundreds. Representation is important - one might say critical - in creating a united society in which all groups can feel that their needs and concerns are being noticed and responded to.

That representation must be more than mere tokenism, so that the single minority example doesn’t feel the weight of representing the entirety of the minority or feel outvoted every time an issue arises.

To take one long term example, look at Saturday Night Live. In the beginning the sole black cast member was Garret Morris. The six white players were the default go-tos in almost every sketch. Morris either was relegated to a bit part or served as The Black in a few sketches.

Today, SNL is far more diverse. Some sketches can feature nothing but black cast members interacting. Those sketches were impossible until the numbers started to equalize. Hispanic, Asian, and gay cast members also are available to play parts that draw on timely people and subjects, which are far greater parts of the public conversation than they were in 1975. No doubt, the writing staff is also far more diverse than it had been. (The women in 1975 complained about the lack of women writers and the default to male sketches.) White writers - straight white male writers - cannot deliver truths from a lifetime of living outside of the default the way minorities can. Even with the best of intentions, their default will be the same old white perspectives about the world.

Saying that white performers and writers adequately capture the full American perspective is obviously wrong. Cable tv and streaming services and movies are full of shows that are written and star minorities across the board. They are noticeably distinct from white-driven shows. And they seem to draw upon audiences that were not viewers of the shows that did not represent them. That alone cannot be dismissed as a factor in hiring.

Nowhere in the real world can anybody draw up a 1 to 1000 list of the best candidates and draw a line under the number needed. This is true for college admissions and choosing corporate CEOs as well as talk-show hosts. That “best” can - must! - exclude a lifetime of different experiences from the white default, which also include fighting and rising up against the white default (remember the feminist saying that a woman must be twice as good as a man to get half the pay). If a minority candidate has outside qualifications that are equal to those of a white candidate then it is extremely likely that their minority status gives them extra points which should automatically mean they are the better option.

Somebody above said that colorblindness is similar to saying that all lives matter. I heartily agree. Nobody here is disagreeing that being blind to color (or other minority status) isn’t an ideal to strive for nor that all lives do truly matter. Neither belongs in this discussion, though. The saying that Black Lives Matter sprang from the way that the powerful treated black lives as if they don’t matter. Representation of image springs from the way that the default minimizes minorities.

As a connoisseur of irony, today’s world gives me gifts every day. I’m an old white man, which means that people look at me and judge me from nothing other than my appearance, making assumptions about my beliefs and actions. Sound familiar? I can understand why other old white men find this discomfiting, and wish for a solution that does not make their appearance representative of the unfortunate behavior of others who look like them.

Maybe there is one, though I’ve never seen any other than the slow process of working toward a more accepting society. But endlessly repeating ‘just hire the best people’ sure ain’t it.

This kind of reminds me of Brian Regan’s comedy bit where he is wearing a Miami Dolphins shirt given to him by a family member. And two Dallas Cowboys fans come up to him - “looks like we got ourselves a Dolphins fan here” and he wonders if he is going to get into a fight.

Instead, they ask him if the Dolphins are “going to go with that wildcat defence again this year”.

“I know this t-shirt looks really official… being 100% cotton and all… but there are people on the Dolphins organizations even higher than me… and they make these sorts of decisions”.

And the real irony is that, if a role is taken by a non-straight white male, the same people that claim they don’t see race will claim that the choice was made due to race, rather than the hiring the best people.

Which exposes their biases and motivations: they can’t imagine an other being the best, or they’re not actually interested in the best.

Another discussion that devolved into a shitty fight over “injustice”. What fun.

I can prove that false very simply.
I don’t know what you mean by “don’t see race” but certainly I don’t care about race and think it should never be a factor in employment.
I see lots of roles being taken by people who are non-white, non-male, non-straight and have zero problem with accepting that the best person for the job was chose and that race was not a factor. If you can trust that there are non-discriminatory hiring practices then the more you can trust the output that you get.

Of course if you allow identity criteria to be a factor in hiring then you cannot honestly avoid accusations and assumptions that people get the job because of those factors. How can it possibly be otherwise?

For a given value of “prove”.

But I’m enjoying your hearty defense of Schrodinger’s Racism.

I simply don’t understand this sort of response. I don’t defend any kind of racism or prejudice and never have. My starting point in this thread was a push back against the assumption that certain races were unsuitable for certain positions.

Even if you think that I’m lying (which is your implication, but based on no evidence whatsoever) surely you believe that people exist that both…

a) judge people by character and ability rather than identity traits
b) accept that people with identity traits other than their own attain positions on merit

And that is all that is needed to provide a counter to the original claim.

If anyone is defending “Shrodinger’s Racism” it isn’t me. It isn’t me that suggests the concept of hiring according to race can be both good and bad at the same time.

I don’t understand what’s so hard to grasp about the notion that a thing could be good or bad depending on the context.

Schrodinger’s Racism is the proposition that racism exists in an indeterminate state until someone actually mentions it, at which point it actualizes and the person who mentioned it is therefore responsible for the racism existing. The underlying - and false - premise is that not mentioning race somehow prevents racism from happening.

Many years ago I worked for an institution that processed applications from candidates, and at one point some bright spark had the same idea you did - that no longer asking about candidates’ racial groupings would prevent racial discrimination in the selection of candidates.

Except of course that it didn’t work. Because, as we’ve repeatedly seen, racism occurs based on quite a lot of factors other than “person tells us whether they’re white or not” (as the example having to do with names mentioned above indicates). All it achieved was to make it much more difficult to assess the extent to which race-based selection bias was occurring, and they went back to asking the usual demographic questions again. So the suggestion that asking the questions is more likely to imply racism than not asking them really doesn’t hold up to much scrutiny.

Even at a basic level, if you refuse to consider identity criteria in a selection process you run the serious risk of allowing unconscious bias to dictate who would select or reject, as the UB courses my current work requires have made very clear indeed. Racism is baked-in to current society (hence my “90 yards” point above). The only way to counter it is to consider it.

And when you’re selecting for a job where appearance and identity criteria are intrinsic to the job - like being host of TDS - and will be interpreted by your audience as a message to them, then you damn well better consider those things and what message you are sending by your choice. Because sometimes those are part of deciding who the “best person for the job” is.

That’s because what you propose is overly simplistic and fundamentally useless in addressing racism. You’re criticizing us for taking a nuanced approach to addressing an incredibly complex problem instead.

I don’t think that. I think that removing and ignoring identity factors during hiring practices prevents them being taken into consideration during that process.

By what metric do you decide that it doesn’t work? That’s in direct contradiction to my experience of the last 15 years. I’ve seen it work first hand. Perhaps you just aren’t very good or diligent at removing those factors? Or perhaps you are personally motivated to keep those factors as part of your hiring practices?

I dispute that identity criteria are intrinsic to such a job. Any ethnicity, sex, gender, age or sexuality is capable of making a good job of it and is capable of putting forward a position that is relevant to any identity group at all. If that were not the case then Trevor Noah would be incapable of being relevant to white, homosexual female Americans. That is not the case.

I’m criticising anyone that uses prejudice to fight prejudice. That is a useless approach, a moral stain and fundamental dead-end if your actual goal is equality.

Let’s say that I, as a consumer of media, and as a straight white male, want some variety. I have plenty of straight white men to watch, but maybe I want to see something else, something from a different perspective.

Does that make me a racist? Does it make a media outlet that sees that there is demand for some variety other than straight white male racist?

If so, then your definition of racism is useless, and has no purpose other than to be used as a snarl word in an attempt to shut down discussion. If not, then I don’t see what your problem is.

That would be … no-one in this thread, then.

When one is accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

[I don’t know who said it, but isn’t it just great?]

Inherent in that statement is the assumption that all straight white men have the same perspective. I reject that assumption.
If difference and variety of perspective is truly your goal then you cast the net as wide as possible and treat individuals on the basis of the perspective they bring and can convey. Why rule out any group before you start?
People of all ethnicities, sexes, sexualities etc. are capable of bringing different approached and perspectives. The within-group differences for humans are always greater than the between-group.

Wanting to have a variety of perspectives on certain subjects is not racist. Refusing to consider people for employment because of the colour of their skin is absolutely racist. To do the same due to sexuality or sex is equally another form of prejudice.

If you were to say that the interview pool for the proposed position is likely to end up overwhelmingly of one identity group, because that identity group is more likely to provide a different perspective (or the perspective you seek) then I have no problem with that. That is very probably true.
However, If you state that the interview room, cannot, under any circumstances contain people of identity x and that they will not even be considered in the first place, then that is what I object to.

Nah, there are a lot of varieties of Vanilla ice cream, and I like many of them, they have their own distinct nuanced flavors.

But sometimes, I want something actually different.

Cool, since no one said that, there is nothing that you object to.

Lotta words you put out when you have no objections, though.

Rejecting an assumption that doesn’t actually match what people are saying is just strawmanning.

All White men still have a White male perspective, even though every White male’s perspective is uniquely their own.