Tropical Fish Attrition Rate

So my big gift this year was a tropical fish tank. I loved tropical fish when I was a kid and my Dad and I had a tank, so I wanted my own, and got it.

After setting it up and letting the water condition, we’ve purcahsed a variety of small tropical fish (I like small ones.) We got

  • a Siamese fighting fish
  • A tricolour shark
  • Two little catfish bottom feeders
  • A little spotted pleco
  • Two orange platys
  • Two golden gouramis
  • Four cardinal tetras
  • Three little hatchet fishes
  • Two zebra danios
  • Two little angel fish

Since tank setup, we’ve lost three and I think we’re about to lose another:

  • Two of the hatchet fish have just gone belly up for no reason. The third looks happy so far. He doesn’t seem to give a crap that his buddies are dead, either.

  • One of the cardinal tetras vanished. He didn’t jump out, so I figure either he died and got eaten, or just got eaten, which of course would make him die. Again, the other three tetras look fine.

  • The Siamese fighting fish and one of the orange platys have decided they hate each other and fight when we’re not looking. (Curiously, it took a week for them to decide to start playing Sharks and Jets.) They’re both showing fin damage. Sooner or later one will be dead, I’m certain.

To those Dopers who raise tropical fish; is this a normal loss rate for a new tank? I’m not too upset about losing four two-dollar fish, but I’m going to be seriously bummed if they all croak. I keep testing the water for PH and ammonia/nitrates and no warning bells go off. The tank’s temperature’s going up and down a bit, but not beyond 77-79 degrees or so. Should I just chalk this up to a standard new-buncha-fish loss rate, or do I have a problem?

I only have a 1.5 gallon aquarium.

However, your Siamese fighting fish (betta) will NOT play well with others.

About six months ago I bought my betta (Elim) and a platy (Nerys) to keep him company. I have had bettas and platys get along in the past. However, Elim decided he hated Nerys and killed her (him?) over the course of 10 days. I felt bad watching it happen and was torn about whether to simply take Nerys out and flush her, which would probably have been quicker. Instead, I just put on my Steve Irwin voice and said “it’s Nature’s way” whenever Elim would start chasing exhausted Nerys.

I’ve heard that in a brand new tank, pretty much all your first fish die because there’s no beneficial bacteria in there. In fact your first fish die so your later fish can be healthy. You should have better luck soon.

Palandine, who can’t wait until she can afford a 20-gallon aquarium

How big is your tank? Do you happen to know what the Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate levels are?

If the tank has only been set up for a week it hasn’t “cycled” yet. This is the process whereby bacteria levels are established and stabalized. Essentially as your fish produce waste the ammonia level will rise. This will cause a benificial bacteria to blossom that will turn the ammonia into several things including nitrites. Nitrites are bad, but luckily when the nitrite spike happens another bacteria will blossom that will turn nitrites into nitrates. Nitrates aren’t great but aren’t nearly as bad as ammonia or nitrite. Regular water changes will take care of nitrates.

It usually takes about a month for the cycle to finish. I wouldn’t have cycled with that many fish but you have them now so I’d just go with it. Some fish are a lot more hearty than others. Tetra’s don’t usually survive a cycle. The gouramis and the pleco should be fine. I’m not sure about the rest.

As far as the fighting goes I agree with your prediction. You could probably take one of them back to the fish store for credit before the inevitable.

You will probably have to feed the catfish and the pleco alfalfa wafers or something until the algae level goes up.

This message board has folks that know a lot more than me and they post a lot and are very friendly.

Good luck

Yeah, I know about he ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle. Actually, we introduced bacterial cultures to the tank to get it started. Ammonia tests as trace to nothing right now, so the bacteria seem to be getting the job done. It’s a 20-gallon tank.

I expected to lose fish in the first cycle, I’m just concerned that there’s no obvious reason for it; I figured the PH would go woozy and kill some of my little friends or something, but the water’s as stable as you could hope for. There’s not much you can do about the betta; as Paladine has said, they’re mean little sons of bitches and are prone to that sort of behaviour. I sometimes wonder if, in the absence of another male to fight with, they arbitrarily pick some other fish to hate. I think they just love fighting. The platy’s giving as good as he’s getting, though, so go figure. I’ll see if they can’t work out a territorial arrangement.

The thing is, the rest of the fish look strong and happy. The catfish and the pleco are doing well with some sinking tabs we give them, and anyway they like the regular flake food when some of it gets to the bottom.

Thanks for the link!

[Magneto voice]
Ah, another puny human has been successfully transformed into a mutant by my Thought Ray! Join us, brother, in our neverending mutant quest for the Perfect Tropical Fish Tank!
[/Magneto voice]

Can’t say much, other than, “Yep, sounds about par for the course.” [sigh]

One big piece of advice: go to the library and read everything they have on tropical fish. This won’t keep your fish from dying any faster, :rolleyes: but at least you won’t feel so alone.

The best piece of advice I ever got from a fish book was, simply, “Fish die.”

[Magneto voice]
And remember, there are more of us out there than you realize…Come, Sabertooth…

Nothing you’ve got in there should actually eat anything else, although as has been mentioned, fighting fish aren’t known for their social graces. There may have been some toxins in the gravel or decorations you used. If it’s been a week your tank’s ecology should be starting to stabilize. You might want to make sure that you keep the numbers of shoaling fish up to reasonable levels. Neon tetras are pretty cheap and will hang with the cardinals. Zebras like to play with friends as well. I have seen Tricolour sharks jump out of tanks a few times so you might want to keep an eye on that (they only seem to do it when people are around… skittish things).

I have had 20 and 25 gallon tanks so I’m not sure how much of my experience will apply to your situation.

Long ago when I set up my first tank, a neighbor who was seriously into tropical fish suggested that I try, whenever possible, to get my fish from a small mom-and-pop store rather than a pet shop chain. According to him, the stresses of rapidly changing environments lower the fishes’ resistance considerably… theoretically, the fish should be less stressed in a small shop with a lower turnover. My experiences to date generally agree with his advice, but even with a mom-and-pop store and a conditioned tank, some of your acquisitions may simply croak from the stress of the trip to your tank.

Actually, for all the fish you got, having only four go belly up seems pretty good. It might not be a bad idea to add a little preventative medicine like anti-ick and raise the temperature of the tank to 80-82 degrees for a week, just to give the rest a better shot at recovering in case they’re already ill. But beware of new problems any time you add new fish to the tank; whenever I did I always lost a couple of old ones as well as a couple of new ones, before things settled down again.

BTW, I agree that your betta is not going to be a happy camper with the others; he might be better off in a small fishbowl of his own.

Who the hell sold you that combination of fish?!?!?!

My God, there is a reason that Siamese Fighting Fish have the word “Fighting” in their name and are kept in solitary confinement. I’ve always been told that they are highly aggressive and should never be put with other fish (yes, obviously they breed somehow but that’s not your concern).

Also, I believe that most of the sharks, including the one you bought are generally considered at least “semi-aggressive.” That is, they should not be put with community fish such as the cardinals, platys and danios. I guarantee that your cardinal that disappeared was killed by one of the others and then the carcass stripped at night by your corys (catfish).

Also, I don’t know about your particular gouramis, but unless they are one of the dwarf varieties, they will almost certainly act aggressively. I’ve got several dwarf blue gouramis and they’re great.

I agree with the mom-and-pop advice (as long as it wasn’t the mom and pop that told you it would be ok to but a beta in the same tank as the cardinals). As my friend Lance once said: “Corporate fish suck.” He also said that a “hungry fish is a happy fish.” I’ve found this to be good advice.

Angelfish should never be kept in the same tank with small fish like tetras. They will eat them - in fact, I used to feed mine mosquito fish I caught in a local pond.

      • I could never keep neon tetras alive, no matter what I did. It was like 5 days, tops. It was a bummer because I thought they were cool, but everything else did okay so I finally resolved myself to a tetra-free tank.
  • You don’t have enough zebras - you need at least 6 or 8 minimum, they’re a school fish. You’ll see this after you put the new ones in; they constantly move around but the group always stays together. - MC

Yes, most people (myself included), do have a lot of fatalities at first. But it doesn’t have to stay that way, as long as you are willing to ask questions and read (which obviously you are). Just by knowing about the nitrogen cycle, you are head and shoulders above the average aquarium owner who fills their tanks up with water and then goes to the pet store the next day to get all their fish (yes, I did it too, knowing nothing about biological filtration back when I had my first fish tank).

I don’t think you have to fear for the entire tank dying.
The problem with these first deaths might be that your fish choices are not really the best for someone just starting out.
This page talks about some of the good and bad fish for beginners:
http://faq.thekrib.com/fish-popular.html

Of course, that doesn’t mean that all is lost or anything…it just means you may need to put some extra care into keeping these particular fish.

It may be hard to believe, but Angelfish are the natural predators of neons in the wild! Some people can keep them together successfully, especially if they are kept together while young, and chances are your angels are too small to eat your neons right now, but I would be very wary of keeping a large angelfish with neons (or any other neon-sized fish, for that matter). Therefore, you may want to plan to eventually move your angels to avoid the threat of having them eat your neons.

Your pleco will probably need supplemental food. There is rarely enough algae, especially in a new tank, to sustain a pleco. This page: http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/pleco2.html suggests ways to make sure your pleco has what he needs.

Others have already mentioned that danios like to have larger groups. That’s true, however, you have to be careful not to overload your tank. Usually, the rule of thumb is “one inch of SLIM-BODIED fish to one gallon of water”.
The fat-bodied fish generally produce more waste per inch than the slim ones. That’s why 10 neons will be fine in a 10 gallon but a 10" Oscar really needs a 55 gallon tank.
Now, remember, it’s a rule of thumb, not an iron-clad rule. Good filtration, lots of water changes, live plants, etc. can let you get away with more fish, while not doing water changes and so forth may actually mean having 1 inch per gallon will be too much fish for the tank.

The catfish you have…probably a type of Corydoras? You may want to look at the photos on http://www.planetcatfish.com to confirm what you have.
Assuming you have “cories”, those are great fish. Very cute and fun to watch. But again, like plecos, they often starve because people expect them to be sustained by scavenging alone. Many people feed their cories special sinking foods for bottom feeders to make sure they get something to eat. It was wise of you to get more than one, though more would be even better. Cories love having the company of their own kind and will do much better with “friends” around.

It could very well be that the hatchet fish died from stress or disease rather than a water quality problem.
To be honest, I wouldn’t recommend hatchets as a beginner fish simply because of how, um, jumpy they are (please make sure your tank cover is secure for the sake of the surviving hatchet–and the danios for that matter, which also tend to jump). As http://www.notcatfish.com/ffotm/1999_05.htm puts it in talking about one species of hatchets:
If kept in small numbers, the fish can panic easily and will leap, several feet, from the tank. Similar to their close relatives of the genus Gasteropelecus, Carnegiella species have curved pectoral fins that can be moved like a bird’s wing. This enables Hatchetfish to literally fly from potential danger. I recommend fitting a tight cover to the aquarium as from time to time, a fish will jump and land on a bracing bar - this is a most unpleasant discovery to make, particularly first thing in the morning!

Neons, being so tiny, apparently tend to distintegrate quickly after death, which probably explains why you didn’t find a body. Unfortunately, though neons are very pretty and very popular, they are kind of sensitive to water quality and so do best in tanks that are already well-established. Neons can also be affected by “Neon Tetra Disease”, an inevitably fatal disease that is contagious to other neons. It’s never a good idea to buy fish from a tank with sick or dead fish in it, but with neons it’s particularly important to look at the health of the fish in the tank. By the way, most fishkeepers who have invested a lot (emotionally or financially) in their tank keep a small QUARANTINE TANK for their new fish purchases to stay in for a couple weeks to make sure diseases don’t spread to the other fish. http://www.notcatfish.com/health/quarantine.htm will give you some idea of what’s involved with setting up a Q-tank.

Aggression seems to depend on the individual betta. Some of them do get mean, but others are fine for community tanks (all bettas are potentially vulnerable to fin-nippers, of course, with their long flowing tails). If possible, you can solve the problem (without fatalities) by getting a small tank for the betta to have to himself. The tank doesn’t have to be extravagant; while many betta keepers don’t agree with keeping them in those TINY cups where the fish can barely swim around, bettas really don’t need more than 2 gallons (as long as they are the only fish in the tank).
In fact, some people claim they actually prefer a relatively small tank: http://www.aquahobby.com/gallery/gbetta.html

By the way, just to clear up the idea that first fish HAVE to die…there is a safe way to cycle tanks! It’s actually much safer (for the fish) and easier (for both you and the fish) to cycle a tank WITHOUT fish first. Check out these two pages for info on fishless cycling:
http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/cycle2.html
http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/cycling.html

Also, I highly recommend that you visit a forum devoted to tropical fish. Just reading the posts already there, you will learn a lot. I know I have. Two of my favorite boards (though certainly not the only good ones) :
http://forums.aquariacentral.com/
http://forums.fishindex.com/

There are some wonderful fish experts hanging out on these boards: people who have been keeping fish for decades, professional fish breeders, responsible pet stores owners (beware that you may find your neighborhood pet store employees really dont know what they’re talking about when suggesting products or fish combinations). The combined knowledge on these fish boards is truly priceless…and yet free to all of us.

Also, as tempting as it is to “impulse buy”, you will be happier in the long run if you always research the fish you’re thinking of getting before you buy. Perhaps even ask on messageboards like the ones mentioned above if the fish you’re thinking of would be compatible with what you already have.
One good reference guide to fish is http://aquariacentral.com/species/ which conveniently gives some basic info like the minimum tank size needed to house various fish species. That’s the best way to avoid unwittingly bringing home a cute baby Pacu or Red-tailed Catfish only to find out they grow into tankbusting monsters!
Another site with helpful info on fish is http://www.aquahobby.com/gallery.html , but since the advice posted there is based on people’s individual experiences what one person says about THEIR fish may not apply to every fish of that species.

They’re called that because the males cannot be kept together. (In Asia, betta battles are a betting sport. Say that five times fast, but it’s true.) Generally, you CAN keep them in a tank with other small fish, and my Dad and I had two bettas who played nice with large community tanks (though some specific types (fan-tailed guppies) might pick fights, I’m told.) This is the first serious scrap I’ve had. Maybe he’s just particularly nasty. Anyway, so far he’s LOSING the fight, so he may learn his lesson, inasmuch as fish can learn.

So far the battle between Mr. SFF and the orange platy has levelled off.

Tricolour sharks are pretty tame. Actually, this one is quite timid. And yeah, they’re tiny little dwarf gouramis. I was going to get the blue gouramis but I got taken by the golds at the last moment of decision.

I’m concerned about the angelfish now, though. If they get too big…

Right now the other fish seem to be thriving.

In case anyone was wondering, all the fish mentioned were bought from Big Al’s, a large tropical fish store which has a very good reputation and keeps its tank farm in tip top shape. I’m quite pleased with the health of the fish and the general state of the store, so I’ll keep using them. To answer a variety of other questions raised about out tank:

  • The hood is on tight, so no jumping out’s gonna happen.

  • I did have the foresight to ask about the pleco’s feeding needs in a new tank. He seems to like bloodworm, but now I’m gonna make some zucchini for him, based on spath’s link. (Thanks)

  • Yes the catfish are corys. Cute little guys.

Mrs. RickJay wants her OWN aquarium now, so we may have an opporunity to rearrange the fish and get some friends for the zebras and corys, and separate the angels from the littler fish if they become a problem (though these are, so far, REALLY small angels.)

Thanks, everyone, for all the pointers.

You already got quite a bit of fantastic advice. What a great group we have here!

Definitely check out the forums others have suggested. It is astounding how much info some of those folks can give you. I remember an incredibly in depth response I got to my stupid question, “How do fish know which other fish to school with?”

That is quite a list of fish to toss into a tank at once. I know how tough it is to wait, but I have always figured I shouldn’t add more than a couple of fish at a time, whether to a new tank, or an established community.

You’ll also find that you will have luck with certain fish, and difficulty with others. So over time, you will gravitate towards those that, for whatever reason, thrive in the environment you provide. You and your neighbor can try to do things exactly the same, and you may have great luck with one species, and he with another.

That said, cardinal tetras are a notoriously tough fish to maintain. I have been able to raise angels and neons I introduced at the same time. But one problem is, the angels will live a lot longer than the neons. When the neons die after their 1-2 year lifespan, you will havesome decent sized angels who will treat any new neons as lunch. It can be impressive watching them herd and devour the tetras, but I’m assuming you aren’t buying them as feeder fish. You may well have difficulty introducing small angels to a tank with established angels.

Another thing, try to avoid the “1 of everything” community. Like gardens, I think most tanks look, and thrive, better if you have nice groups of a limited number of species. Myself, I do really well with angels, larger tetras like serpaes, and corys. So those are the focus of my main tank. Another neat way to go is to have various cichlids. But the greater the variety of fish, the tougher it is to make them all happy.

I focus on relatively cheap fish. If a $2 tetras cacks, well, it is disappointing, but not nearly so disappointing as if your $15 knife fish (or more expensive marine fish) goes belly up. See, I’m a blue collar fish guy. You can make an aquarium as much, or as little effort and expense as you wish.

Also consider live plants. Oh, and betas can be really fun and easy to breed. Get both wild and oriental, and track the genetics.

Finally, it is very unusual to hear of a fish person trading in a large tank for a smaller one. So, if Mrs Rick is wanting a tank, get the biggest one you can imagine fitting in the given space. The initial cost and the upkeep required isn’t that much greater, and you can do so much more with larger tanks. I bet if you get anything smaller than a 50, within a year you will be wishing you had bought larger.

Enjoy. And keep us posted.

      • I had a hatchetfish that would fly out of the tank if I left the cover off while cleaning. It sounded like a bumblebee and I’d find it lying on the floor near a wall. Covering 6 or 8 feet was no problem. Despite all its excursions and hard landings, it did live a long time and didn’t do anything else obnoxious. - MC

I recommend that you read The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Freshwater Aquariums by Mike Wickham, even if you do not consider yourself to be a complete idiot. :). This is an excellent book for beginners.

I didn’t see where you said how big your tank was. Are you familiar with the rule of thumb that calls for “one inch of fish per gallon of water”?

Also, in my experience, plecos produce an enormous amount of “waste” (read: poop) for their size, and the more zucchini you feed them, the more they poop. You might want to stick to algae flakes or sinking pellets for a while, until you get your tank population stabilized.

Also, uneaten zucchini makes an unbelieveably filthy mess down behind the decorations where you don’t notice it until it’s too late.

My experience with bettas in a tank with angelfish was that the betta was the one who was picked on constantly. He took to huddling in the top corner of the tank, until I finally gave him his own bowl.

You didn’t say who picked out your assortment of fish. I can’t help wondering, how much input did Big Al have? How much input did YOU have? I agree with whoever it was that said it sounded like a rather odd assortment of fish. The tetras, zebra danios, and hatchet fish are all schooling fish, and are happiest if they’re in groups of at least 10. As a couple of people have already mentioned, angel fish are notorious for their ability to devour smaller fish like zebra danios and neon and cardinal tetras.

Even platies are happier if they’re in a crowd.

I was once in my local Mom-and-Pop tropical fish shop, a very reputable place where the serious hobbyists like to hang out, where I witnessed Pop patiently putting fish into baggies for a woman who was buying a Christmas present for her grandson, who was with her. They walked up and down like it was a candy counter. “We’ll have two of those, and four of those, and how much are those? Oh, those are pretty…” And Pop didn’t say a word, he just kept on scooping up fish and twirling rubber bands as fast as he could.

He was a businessman, after all.

Message #4. 20 gallons.

Mrs. RickJay called in despondence; the betta has gone to meet his maker after another fight with the platy, and another cardinal tetra has vanished, doubtlessly into the gullets of his tankmates.

Oh, well. Now we’re left with the hardier breeds, anyway. We now have about 14 fish-inches of fish.

Okay, I’ll do that.

Actually they did shoot down two choices I’d made: some fantails, which they felt would be attacked by the betta, and a cichlid I had mistaken for a gourami, which of couse would have grown to be huge and eaten the other fish and maybe one of our cats. They also warned against the cardinal tetras, but I was stubborn because, hey, they’re cheap. I think I’ll take the last two back before they die and try them again when the tank’s stable.

The angels are VERY small, I must emphasize - shorter, in fact, than the zebras. If and when they do start nipping, back to the store they go. I prefer smaller fish anyway.

      • I dunno if fish stores will take something back you don’t want, even for free. To much risk of disease transmission. Maybe mail them to S. America? - MC

Already a done deal. They have special tanks for returns.

The cardinal tetras were cheap? :eek: Gimme the address of Big Al’s…But were they maybe neon tetras instead? Neons around here usually run $1.29 each, sometimes they’re on sale for 99 cents. Cardinals are usually $2.49 EACH and I’ve never seen them on sale. Maybe you just have a different definition of “cheap”, Mr. Moneybags? :smiley:

In my experience it’s better to understock than overstock a tank, and 20 gallons is really not that big for a big collection of tropicals, which are extremely sensitive to nitrites and nitrates. One accidental overfeeding (“me feed fish for Daddy!”) and you can get an ammonia spike in only 6 hours, and before you know it, there’s another dead fish. It’s better to have water in reserve, so to speak, to dilute that ammonia spike.

Death and taxes, and the fact that angelfish will eat zebra danios. Just wait.

Get another betta and put him in a little 5 gallon aquarium all by himself, and get one of those lightweight locker mirrors and tape it to the outside of the tank (on the side, so it doesn’t block the view). He’ll display to himself (and the room in general) for hours and hours, every day.