Trump associates may have coordinated with Russians, according to US officials

I don’t know. There are a couple of other possibilities with Trump;

  1. He’s too much of a fucking moron to even realize that he’s guilty. He’s completely out of touch with what is right, wrong, legal, illegal. These kinds of things are too complex for his tiny little brain to comprehend.

  2. He’s too much of an egotistical prick to think that anyone could ever be smarter than him, so there is no way he could ever be caught. He won’t prepare for that eventuality, because his smartitude can never be questioned.

He’s a moron when it comes to running a legitimate business and being president, but he’s got the smarts of a good mafioso or ponzi schemer. I think he’s smart enough to know when the law is onto him. He’s used his cash flow to evade the law, overpower it, or simply buy his way out of a jam. But taking on the massive resources of the federal government in pursuit of a criminal finding is a different matter, and he knows it. It just so happens he happens to sit in the seat that allows him to control a lot of its levers. I think we’d be naive to assume he wouldn’t try. Comey’s dismissal was evidence enough for me. Arpaio’s pardoning only added to that evidence.

It’s not about whether someone’s smarter than him; he perceives that his enemies are out to get him, and he finds himself in familiar territory, a zero-sum game of survival. That is the prism through which Trump sees a lot of his life: winning and losing, predator or prey, freedom or jail. There’s no gray.

Mueller, attorneys meet with chief judge of US District Court. Hmmm… talking about adoptions? Probably not. Getting ready to indict somebody? I think more likely. We know Manafort is going to be, perhaps formally doing so will increase his cooperation. Would be nice if Don the Con, Don Jr, Jared, and Ivanka were all on the receiving end of indictments but it’s likely still early for that.

I agree with much of what has already been said, but there are some additional factors that may mitigate the damage he will do when he makes his power grab – and I have no doubt he will make one.

He’s got a lizardy cunning when it comes to avoiding the law in his business, but he was also protected by lawyers who knew how to get things done in the mafioso business culture of New York real estate. He has longstanding relationships with those people and he trusts them. On top of that, he never ran a publicly held corporate empire. His holdings are private, so he could move about and do unethical things with comparative privacy.

He’s not in that world anymore. He’s in a world of which he has no understanding, no instincts, no experience – and perhaps most importantly, no connections.

His political cronies are/were the most batshit of the batshit: Bannon, Miller, Sessions and others at the very fringe. The Batshit Breitbart Brigade. It’s easy to pretend you’ve got big ideas when you’re just a bigot jeering from the sidelines. But their inadequacies quickly became apparent once Trump “won” the election and got down to presidentin’.

Comey’s firing was a perfect example of it. They (all but Bannon) actually believed Dems would cheer and be pleased about that.

The Breitbart crowd miscalculates a lot. They screwed up with the Muslim ban. They screwed up taking on health care with no understanding of its immensity and complexity. They’re going to screw up tax “reform” the same way. In short, they haven’t a clue. These guys know how to game an election, but it’s a bit harder to pull off Dirty Tricks Government. Not that they don’t try, almost constantly.

One of the places where they most severely miscalculated is how important it was to cultivate the favor of McConnell and Ryan. McConnell, reptilian in his own way, sacrificed a very great deal in his efforts to prop up Trump. He has received nothing but shit in return. Plus I’ll bet he gets an earful every night from wife and Secretary of Transportation, Elaine Chao. McConnell fired a pretty significant shot across Trump’s bow recently when he said he wasn’t sure Trump’s presidency would survive a single term. Reading between the lines, one might conclude that McConnell was telegraphing that he might not do much to prevent Trump’s impeachment should it come to that.

Ryan will blow whomever he finds convenient to further his breathless Ayn-Randian tax cut world, but he was never a Trump fan. Likely it won’t take much for Ryan to sniff the foul wind and decide that it would be a better bet to spend his remaining political capital to advance Pence going forward, assuming Pence doesn’t also get scooped up in Mueller’s probe. In which case, Ryan is next in line, and golly heck, what better way to advance your agenda than to be the president your own little self!

Further, the military brass are not fans. Can you imagine how John Kelly feels, having lost a son to combat in Afghanistan, every time Trump makes lighthearted comments about taking us into a war? The chucklehead who took 5 deferments from service because of a bone spur in his foot? How Mattis, McMaster and others must feel about top security clearances being granted to Ivanka and Jared? I mean, FFS.

With every misstep, Trump sheds important people who might intercede on his behalf. If the mood of the country becomes sour and angry enough over what they learn from Mueller, and there are indications that they will, Trump may not have any ace in the hole to fend off an impeachment at all.

As for Teh Base™, yes, they’ll scream like hell. But they really are a minority. Trust in Trump is dropping as trust in traditional media is growing. People are angry and getting angrier. If they strongly demand a particular outcome, it will be hard for moderate and so-called “establishment” Republicans to ignore.

One last point: If the rise of a third party becomes a distinct possibility, then I think those so-called “establishment” Republicans will have a come-to-jeezus moment. Ironically, they may find that the salvation of their own party lies in cooperation with Democrats to impeach Trump. Is there any other way to effectively marginalize the Batshit Breitbart Brigade?

All this to say, Trump can’t carry out his evil plot to take over America without a great deal of help. I don’t think he’ll have it. I hope he won’t – not even among Republicans. Frankly, I’m more worried about Russian help.

If I’m wrong about this – and I’ll certainly allow that I could be – then in my opinion, we’re too far gone as a society to bother over it.

That pricked up my ears. :slight_smile: If Manafort is indicted, I wonder what Trump will do?

He’ll likely make a point of saying repeatedly how he hardly knows the guy and that Manafort was involved in the campaign for an incredibly short period of time. He had no real power. Didn’t make any serious decisions. Never trusted him. That’s why Donnie Jingles got rid of him, dontcha know?

And then a few days later - full pardon.

With full pardon will come testimony with no pleading the fifth. Don the Con will not like that.

No, he won’t. But do you really believe he is going to start thinking through the consequences of his actions? I’ve seen zero evidence that will ever happen.

His lawyers will kick and scream, wail and gnash their teeth if they find out he’s about to do that.

In regards to the Steele dossier, I initially thought that if the pee tape ended up being real, it would greatly hurt Trump, but now I think his supporters would just shrug it off, and the rest of the country might too. If it’s just Trump being present while some prostitutes pee on a bed, I don’t see that being particularly damning or scandalous, given all the other stuff Trump has done. It might cause further tension with Melania though

In regards to the Russia scandal, it’s possible that Mueller won’t be able to prove collusion, at least with Trump himself. The various leaks suggest that the Congressional investigations are having trouble finding evidence of collusion. I think it’s more likely Mueller will find obstruction after the fact and tax and other crimes that Trump committed in the past. He’s hiding his tax returns from the public for a reason, even if it’s for something as stupid as not being as rich as he claims. I have no doubt Manafort and Flynn will be charged with a few crimes though.

Well, suppose a bunch of Russians put together a fake Pro-Trump PAC. Therefore, not officially part of the Trump campaign, just a bunch of amatuer enthusiasts for guns, war, and rotten health care. So far as anybody knows, just a bunch of Americans without the good sense God gave a goose.

So, Tardos for Trump says “Hey, we got a bunch of money for ads, but we want to target them effectively! Which we could totally do if we had more demographic information! Like, what part of Wisconsin has the most Democrats leaning toward Bernie but still willing to vote for Hillary if need be? Where in Pennsylvania do we find Democrat voters who are skittish about this whole BLM thing? Where in Pennsylvania do we find the most voters who are not skittish enough about BLM? Gosh, if we had really good demographic data, we could target our ads more effectively and help Trump!”

Now, maybe they could hack it, but why not just ask? “Pretty please, can we help you put an utter moron in the WH? We are all good Americans who totally love the idea of waking up every morning wondering if we went to war with Belgium?”

So, the Republicans have all this solid-gold Cambridge Anal data, but they go “Wait a minute, how can we be sure you are real sincere patriotic Americans who think Red Dawn was a documentary? We’ll have to check you out carefully…Nah, here you go, knock yourselves out.”

Collusion? An official of the Republican signs some memo approving “Tardos for a Fucked America” request for access to data, and they run Facebook ads about how Hillary has kidnapped Bernie’s grandchildren and shipped them to the Pedophile Pizza Palace in one place, ads about how Hillary was leader of a lesbian-Maoist collective at Wellesley (which she covered up by pretending to work for Goldwater) Ads about how Hillary will follow Obama’s lead and appoint Federal Sharia judges.

One ad is targeted at Dems who like Bernie but will vote for Hillary, unless they are totally pissed off and think Bernie was screwed over. Another ad for blue collar Dems who favor civil rights, but think maybe things have gone a bit too far, too fast. So on and so forth. All carefully targeted for the demographics of the important, swingy electoral states. States Trump won with, overall, less than a hundred thousand votes.

Swung the election? Possible, sure. Help from the Trump Campaign? Yeah, but they might have been able to steal it anyway. Trump colluded? No fucking way, he’s not smart enough, he may be so friggin’ dumb, he actually believes five million illegal aliens voted for Hillary. But mostly, can anyone believe that Putin, long time veteran of the Cagey Bee would trust a shit-for-brains blabbermouth with that big a secret? Why give anyone the power to rat them out if they don’t have to?

Collusion? Not provable, I think, but I still want to know, because I don’t want them to do it again! Fuck me once, shame on you, fuck me twice, well, shit, I’m not into it, but twenty bucks is twenty bucks…

My goodness, what news do you listen to? I’ve seen nothing that indicates that. In fact, just the opposite.

The congressional investigations are political as hell. There is deep partisanship in all the congressional committees, especially the House. Witness Devin Nunes’ idiotic midnight ride to the White House to obtain papers that he later presented back to the White House, claiming they provided “proof” that Obama “wiretapped Trump Tower.” It was such a dumb, baldly partisan move, Nunes was made to step aside from overseeing the Russia probe in April after the House ethics panel opened an investigation into whether he had leaked classified information in his attempt to discredit the Obama administration.

Then, even after supposedly stepping aside, Nunes dispatched two congressional aides to London in a surprise visit to try and interview Steele, without giving notice to the other committee members. Ranking Democrat Adam Schiff is very angry about that, and he has every right to be.

The House committee has shown itself to be so partisan, it has essentially rendered itself irrelevant to its mission. There have been many allegations of shoe-dragging by Republicans on that committee in their attempts to deviate the committee from its tasks. Since their primary focus is to determine if Trump committed impeachable offenses, this is not surprising from a Republican-dominated committee. Sad, though, and worth remembering at the mid-terms.

The Senate committee headed by Richard Burr and Mark Warner also suffers from this problem though to a lesser degree. Yet Burr very specifically said just a few days ago that collusion cannot be ruled out. That’s a pretty big deal, considering how bad the Republican congress as a whole wants a finding of no collusion.

There are similar riffs in the Senate Judiciary Committee with Chuck Grassley and Diane Feinstein. Grassley in particular is very invested in doing all he can to dismiss and discredit the Steele dossier. Unfortunately for him and Trump both, the dossier remains very much relevant to the Mueller investigation because parts of it have in fact been corroborated as stated publicly by Diane Feinstein. For all we know, virtually all of it has been corroborated. Only Mueller knows.

All the congressional committees are also very leaky. That’s the primary reason why Steele has been reluctant to meet with congressional committee members but happy to meet with Mueller. Senator Burr has said that Steele must reveal who paid for the dossier. Steele won’t. And Steele certainly won’t reveal the names of the sources of his information to anyone but Mueller (apparently already has) so as to not endanger those individuals.

It doesn’t matter who paid for the dossier. It only matters if the details contained in it can be verified and corroborated. It would seem they can.

If you could provide a cite that shows “Congressional investigations are having trouble finding evidence of collusion,” I’d sure like to take a look at those.

Its the money. Mueller has authority to investigate stuff that comes up in his investigation. Kinda like a Special Persecutor who is assigned to investigate financial dealings but veers off into some sex scandal. 'Course, the Pubbies would never approve of any thing like that…

Its the money, and they investigate, and go to Trump’s lawyers and say we totally cannot prove collusion. However, we have found enough financial irregularities to send Il Douche to Club Fed for a couple thousand years. Plus, rack up enough fines and confiscations so that if he does get out, he goes to live under a bridge. Here’s the resignation papers, we made some special room for a really BIG signature, right there…"

Its the money.

Of course it is.

But I think it’s more than that. I’ve heard/read Mueller has evidence of Trump Organization payments directly to the foreign troll farms that were tasked with disbursing the Russian propaganda to Facebook accounts. Haven’t raised it because I’ve seen nothing that confirms the truth of it.

But do you think there wouldn’t be a conspiracy charge that could be laid against Trump himself if that assertion is true?

And just think, what wonderful fantasy it would be if Mueller had recordings of Trump talking to Putin saying “You make sure I am elected, we will do great things together, trust me!”

ROTFLMAO. Fantasies. The left’s sustenance.

Trump is that dumb, sure. But Putin? Cutouts and cat’s paws, Moscow Centre Rules.

Dunno. Is it actually illegal for foreign people to express their opinions? Is it written so carefully that ten well-paid lawyers couldn’t find a loophole? TG, IANAL, so dunno.

IANAL, either, but I worked with hundreds of them for many years, so some of it rubbed off.

I think foreign people can express their opinions all they like, but not if they are paid to do so by a particular candidate. Again, if true and the linkage is proved, I think it would be a component of conspiracy that could be alleged against Trump.

The people Mueller has hired to work on his investigation are the premier folks in the country who are able to unravel the tangled webs of shell companies, cutouts and cats’ paws. If it’s there, I believe they will find it.

In a sense, the Breitpart army miscalculated, but I wouldn’t write them off yet. Bannon is still going to be a political force, and he is only going to make the Republican party more extremist. Moore is almost certain to win Alabama – imagine having that loon as part of the U.S. Senate. But wait, it gets better. Imagine having a Breitbart replacement for Corker in Tennessee and in Wyoming. Breitbart, with the help of super donors, could end up playing a major role in politics after 2018.

If Bannon is truly the face of the Republican Party, then we are already lost.

But you know, it’s a funny thing. There’s a point where money wears off. People become immune to the tidal wave of BS, and it doesn’t matter how much you spend. People vote how they’re going to vote.

Yes, Moore is almost certain to win in Alabama. But… it’s Alabama. They spawned Jeff Sessions. It’s never going to change. They’re still fighting the Civil War down there. Moore is going to join up with the Freedom Caucus and create even more dissent in the Republican ranks than is already there. Tennessee is a purple state. Corker’s departure just clears the way for a Democrat if Breitbart advances another kook, and McConnell knows it.

Gorsuch aside, Republicans have not delivered a single thing they promised they would do if voters sent them to Washington DC. And in fact, some R voters are starting to realize they didn’t really want them to do what they asked them to do. Trumpcare is not a popular alternative to Obamacare. Republicans just let the CHIP program lapse. Parents of kids are going to start feeling that pinch in a couple of months.

What Republicans have done is make it pretty obvious that they only drained the swamp in order to find the bottom feeders to fill Trump’s cabinet: Price, Mnuchin, Cohn… you already know who’s in the Rogue’s Gallery. Quite a few independents and moderate Republicans have noticed. What accomplishments will they run on? Tax payer-funded charter jet air travel?

There’s also a sizeable enthusiasm gap. Dems are fired up and angry. Republicans are wondering if they made a mistake, backing Trump. Trump is a drag on their races. I’m basing that on his overall approval rating now v. when he was elected. Just look at how Trump’s “support” helped Luther Strange. You could practically hear McConnell hissing, “Don’t help!”

No way to know what the Mueller Effect will be until he issues his report, recommendations and indictments if merited. Whatever it is, I don’t think it can help Republicans. There’s a reason they’re fighting it tooth and nail in every possible way they can.

Special elections at the state level around the country do not bode well for Republicans. Dems are winning in those races again and again. Getting back to Senate/House races, yes, Ossoff lost. But only by half a point, in a Republican district that was considered safe by 20 points. That tells me that races with anything less than a 20 point spread between the Republican and Democratic candidate is winnable by a Dem. That’s an awful lot of races around the country at the mid-terms.

Richard Parker raised a scenario in another thread where Republicans would gin up their base by making it clear that if Dems controlled the Congress, then Trump will certainly be impeached. He’s 100% right that tactic will work on the Trump base. Not sure the rest of the country is as eager to prevent an impeachment. Trump is scaring the crap out of people with his threats of war against North Korea and efforts to destabilize the Middle East, along with general boneheadedness. Quite a number of his own party are scared of him. They may well view impeachment as a feature, not a bug.

The major unknown is how successful Russia will be in swaying the mid-terms the same way they did 2016 election results. They are emboldened by their success and the fact that the Republican Congress has turned a blind eye. However, I am heartened by the response to Trump’s “Voter Fraud” commission. Every state election official sees it for the bullshit it is, and most state level election officials are working to safeguard their results for the future. Zuckerberg finally gets it. Hopefully Twitter and Instagram will, too.

Guess we’ll see.