I’m not familiar with these crimes, but if you read the indictment (available here), it alleges that Manafort and Gates “conspired to defraud the United States” by committing the various tax, financial, and FARA violations. Again not my area, but it looks to me like the “conspiracy against the United States” charge would apply to any conspiracy to commit any sort of reporting or tax violation. See 18 USC 371 (“If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy” etc.).
I think it is probably the least significant of the charges, but has a title that will attract certain attention.
You’re now falling back on “a lot of evidence” because a quick perusal confirms my speculation that the “conspiracy against the United States” just means acting in concert to obstruct the efforts of the DOJ and IRS.
No idea what this means for Manafort (doesn’t look good). But it’s clear from the indictment that none of it has any (direct) connection to the Trump campaign or collusion with Russia.
If only bad optics mattered to Trump voters and Republicans in congress.
Sadly, I’m preparing myself for disappointment re: the Mueller investigation. I want Trump removed, and bad optics relating to a former campaign manager isn’t going to cut it. I know it’s still early and lots could change, but I’m trying to get mentally ready for the mundane.
I’m with you. I predict a long painful slog with little meaningful result. Of course, we can rely on Trump to react in a way that creates conflict rather than minimizing the impact. So there’s THAT! :rolleyes:
I’m not worried about the Mueller investigation at all. Mueller and his team are going to get their men and women. This is a massive investigation, a lot like one of those old paint-by-numbers portraits: Takes awhile to fill in all the bits. This one is far more involved and serious than Watergate or Whitewater. It involves foreign agencies. It is multi-pronged and far-ranging.
Today, just one small part has been painted in. When the portrait is finished, the whole picture will be painfully clear. There will be no escape from the conclusions.
Another small piece just got filled in with the Papadoupolos plea for lying to the FBI. George Papadoupolos was an active foreign policy advisor to the campaign.
These first indictments/pleas have completed one small part of the picture. Trump and his crap lawyers are no match for Mueller and his team. Mueller won’t charge anything he can’t prove.
Trump’s reaction shows an immense amount of panic and fear about where this is all going. “DO SOMETHING!!” “NO COLLUSION!!”
I predict everyone will get very sick of hearing the word, “conspiracy,” rather than of “winning.”
Trump could be a member of the “together with others” that is mentioned several times in the accusations.
More importantly, I don’t think you’re going to find anyone who much cares whether Trump stole the election, is being blackmailed by Russia, owes money to Russia, or laundered money for Russia. Half a dozen of one, six of another. Ultimately, the concern is that the President can’t be trusted to be and stay loyal to the country more than that anyone cares whether he really earned that last 1% of the electorate on his own.
If, for whatever reason, you care more about the question of campaign hijinks than the defense of the nation, then I would suggest that you could use to think about that decision a bit more.
None of which should you take to mean as me saying that Trump is guilty of something. There’s just sufficient doubt, based on his history, his statements, and the people that he chooses to associate with that it merits a good, honest investigation. If he proves innocent, then huzzah. The man’s still an idiot, but at least that’s all there is to it.
This is the actual “Holy shit” revelation of this morning.
The Mueller team kept this quiet for 4 weeks?
Josh Marshall, TPM, says it appears the Mueller team allowed the leaking of the upcoming indictments to see how team Trump would react, but not this. But, regardless, the guy plead out FOUR WEEKS AGO and not a damned person knew it.
Anyway, F-P, here is the campaign-related indictment, er, arrest, er, crime for which you seek.
Funny how Paul Manafort is being charged with money laundering and conspiracy with the very same people who conspired to interfere with the election… but that, surely, is pure coincidence.
a) I myself wasn’t “discounted” either, nor you nor 300 million other Americans. But the charges have no apparent connection to any of us so that’s of no significance, and the same applies to Trump. b) Manafort is of no importance other than his connection to the Trump campaign.
To be fair, if I am asked to investigate whether there are any dead bodies on that beach over there, when I come back with a bunch of baggies of drugs, that’s not proof that there was a murder on the beach, it’s only proof that I spent time looking into that beach over there.
This is entirely true. Ergo, I didn’t write something like, “You’re wrong!” I cautioned against language that seemed to exonerate the President, when such language wasn’t justified from the information we had been provided.
Let’s say that the media and the Obama administration never cottoned on to Manafort’s past. Somehow he slipped through the net.
As a key advisor during the Presidential campaign, it’s likely that Manafort would have taken a key role in the White House. Quite potentially, he would have served as the Chief of Staff.
Personally, I find that prospect worrying. I don’t want the person running the President’s schedule and who is controlling all of the information he sees to be a slimey bastard who would sell himself out to any homocidal scumbag on the planet. Nor do I want it to be someone who can be blackmailed by all of the homocidal scumbags across the planet who can reveal what a slimey bastard the guy is.
So if you’re saying that somehow it is not important that Manafort was discovered, investigated, and (at present) indicted, then I would have to continue to say that you’re strongly missing the forest for all the trees. So far as national security goes, this is a big win. As a person who wants my country to do well and do so honestly and with intellectual rigor, keeping slime and foreign tentacles out of the upper reaches of government is a good day in my house.
And before anyone in the campaign starts to write this off as “Papado-who?!” , he was one of the five people Trump named as his chief foreign policy advisers in this WaPo interview:
I don’t think I wrote any language that seemed to exonerate Trump, but in case anyone thinks there may have been such an implication, I hereby specifically disavow it.
It’s possible that people more experienced about such matters can comment about the likelihood of Mueller indicting Manafort for unrelated matters if he also had the goods on him for collusion and/or campaign related matters, but AFAIK he can always come back later for more. Especially as I’ve seen the suggestion that there may have been some SOL considerations involved.
No I was saying as an indicator of possible Trump campaign collusion, the Manafort indictment is not significant.
If you want to make a big deal about the fact that at one point it seemed likely that Manafort might get a big government position, I’m not sure I agree with that either, but at any rate the discussion here is about Trump campaign collusion and in that specific context this indictment is no big deal.
Perhaps, but as I pointed many times in the past, this is again a painful demonstration that Trump is grossly incompetent about the people he chooses to work with. Trump at best continues to have a blind spot about corruption and many Republicans are catching that bug.
Remember, when there is no pivot whatsoever shown by the president, it is the job of all Americans to compel the president to do so. Demonstrating who are the rotten apples is part of that effort, going forward the next steps will be about what Trump the Republicans and followers will deal with things like Trump not being diligent about enforcing the sanctions that Congress told him to apply to Russia.
We are way past the time of the need for any American to continue to apologize for Dorito Trumpolini.