Are you implying that Don Jr. did? Because I’m not aware that he did that. He was offered information.
I’m going to take a wild stab here and guess you’re talking about Trump’s, “Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you can find those 30,000 emails Hillary deleted.”
If that’s what you mean, I think it would be hard to prove in a court that that was a serious request. I certainly thought he was being snarky at the time, but I can’t get inside his head. The important thing is that I wonder how easily it could be proven that Trump was attempting to solicit criminal action at a press conference.
I just want to say I’m thoroughly impressed with this board so far. As a political junkie from another, less-moderated forum focused more on personal drama than actual discussion, this is a breath of fresh air.
Yep, and that’s where the “spreading information of public interest” cutout that the mass media has, allowing them to publish top secret reports, hacked materials, etc. is unlikely to transfer from the media to political candidates. Legalizing the use of foreign spy networks by political candidates is, simply, far too dangerous a prospect to try and patch over with a fig leaf of “public interest”.
It really does. Campaigns are allowed to purchase things of value, but a thing of value given to a campaign must be reported as a campaign contribution.
The Clinton campaign bought information from an American company.
The Trump campaign was given information by the Russian government.
If it was illegal what Don Jr. did because Veselnitskaya offered damaging information on a campaign rival as a “thing of value” in order to influence the election, then Russian sources offering damaging information on a campaign rival to Steele for the benefit of the Clinton campaign would also run afoul of the law.
By the way, CFR 110.20 is the strongest argument I’ve seen for why Don Jr. is guilty of criminality. If there is some other law or code that you think applies I’m open to it.
Please show where the Clinton campaign used any information gleaned from the Steele information to benefit her campaign. While you’re at it, show where Steele took steps to withhold the information he obtained from the FBI.
Like I said, the law doesn’t differentiate between that. Solicitation is enough to satisfy the requirements of the code. Further, providing or withholding the solicited information has no bearing on it’s criminal nature.
What’s at issue here is solely whether damaging information from a foreign national on a campaign rival is classified as a “thing of value” in the code.
You said “yet Don Jr doing the same thing”; I was merely pointing out that no, they did not do the same thing. Your characterization is completely incorrect.
In the eyes of the cited code, they did the exact same thing. As I said, solicitation is enough to satisfy the requirements of a violation of the code. It doesn’t matter if the Clinton campaign used the information, or whether they provided it to the FBI after the fact, merely soliciting a “thing of value” from a foreign national is a violation (again, assuming damaging information on a political rival falls under the code).
Now, if you want to argue that they solicited the information in order to hand it to the FBI, that’s an argument, but that’s not what happened. Steele approached the FBI on his own “out of a sense of duty”.
And all that would need to happen is to follow the chain up.
The Clinton campaign and the DNC hired a law firm, who in turn hired Fusion GPS, who in turn hired Steele. If Steele had instead been involved in a break-in at GOP headquarters to steal documents, the Clinton campaign would not be able to simply shrug and say they had nothing to do with it. The trail of money would lead right back to them and they would have to prove they had no knowledge of it, even though they were paying the bills. The law firm and Fusion GPS would have to do the same.
Simply using intermediaries to keep degrees of separation between you and criminal endeavors is nothing new.
Just to clarify, I’m not saying it was illegal, I’m demonstrating that if it were illegal, it would follow right back to the Hillary campaign.
Yes but nothing in the email chain between him and Goldstone indicate any specificity regarding hacked materials.
Clinton: Campaign hires Fusion GPS to learn if the Trump campaign is engaging in criminal activity by conspiring with the Russian government to defraud the United States of a free and fair election, with no express or advance knowledge that the investigation will reveal such criminal activity. Fusion GPS hires Christopher Steele, a noted expert in Russian spycraft, to learn what is there to be learned. In fact, they learn that criminal activity is likely happening, and without telling the candidate, quietly refer the matter to the FBI for further and appropriate investigation.
Trump: Campaign receives an email explicitly advertising that Russia is interested in illegally exploiting illegally-obtained information to further the candidate’s success in the election. All top campaign officials eagerly attend a meeting with Russians present and are disappointed when the “goods” are not made readily available.
Yeah, those are the exact same thing in the eyes of the law. :rolleyes:
Does it matter that the original contract was from a group of anti-Trump Republicans? As I recall, they stopped funding it after Il Douche got the nomination, and the Clinton people picked up the option. Why that would matter eludes me, a boor of little brain. Also, I further recall reliable testimony that the “spark” for the investigation arose from Pappaduplicitous.
Anyway, the Russia thing isn’t popcorn-worthy anymore. A House investigation into what happened to the Inauguration money that went poof - gone!..that will be worth a bowl or two. Trump is the David Copperfield of money.
Yup. In April 2016. Comey opened his investigation in July 2016. The Steele Dossier didn’t find its way to the FBI task force that understood its importance until October 2016.
Personally, I think the Russia thing is about to get very popcorn-worthy. But since you’re bored, I think the far more riveting House investigation will be to learn more about Trump ordering the Justice Department to prosecute Hillary Clinton and James Comey. Attempting to use our institutions to Prosecute. His. Political. Enemies.
And yet, by your own account, the Clinton campaign did no such thing: they did not solicit anything from any Russians. Oh wait, you posted that after you posted what I just quoted above:
Aside from the personalities involved in what actually happened, as an abstract matter, would you see a difference in potential criminal culpability in these scenarios:
Campaign aide simply asks US National if they know anything derogatory on opposition candidate.
Campaign aide simply asks foreign national if they know anything derogatory on opposition candidate.
US person offers campaign aide derogatory information on candidate, with no particular reason to believe the information was illegally obtained.
Foreign person offers campaign aide derogatory information on candidate, with no particular reason to believe the information was illegally obtained.
Campaign aide asks anyone to undertake illegal activities to collect information on opposition candidate.
The way I see it, 1-4 aren’t illegal at all, and 5 clearly is.
Bringing us back to real-world events, and leaving out some nuances, the Steele dossier appears to generally be in line with number 2. What Don Jr sought to do is somewhere in the gray area of 4 and 5.