12 is not way way above 7
OK, you’re right about 12 being the max points for English. For some reason I stopped at 90th percentile. But please, tell us exactly which categories you are talking about and exactly how many points you get. It doesn’t make much sense to argue about qualitative statements when the quantitative evaluation is readily available.
I would probably allocate the points a bit differently, but I consider this to be Trump’s opening position, and that we (Congress) will then negotiate from there. If a bill gets passed, I doubt it will have this exact point system, so let’s see what Congress proposes.
Cite?
For all categories except a US-school doctorate/professional degree (and thus the vast majority of potential immigrants), immigrants can get more points by having perfect English than having a very good education. This means that the WH is either incompetent (and meant to prioritize education above perfect English for almost all immigrants, but clearly failed) or really does value perfect English above education for almost all immigrants, which IMO indicates bigotry, and little actual concern for whether immigrants might be a burden on our systems.
LOL Oh dear
It’s hard to tell what the different percentiles actually mean in terms of ability. This page shows raw TOEFL numbers and their percentile:
60th percentile is a score of 88. For comparison’s sake, universities in the US have a minimum score requirement of between 80 and 100.
I never suggested for a moment that they had thought this out carefully.
Not really. How many foreigners have a great education (i.e., PhD) but speak no English? Especially when we are talking about STEM fields. While it may be true that you can find the odd person who fits your characterization, it ignores actual reality.
We know that already.
It might indicate bigotry, but if you look at the pool of proficient English speakers who want to come to the US, it’s unclear to me that most of them are NOT of the brown persuasion. India, Pakistan, The Philippines, Taiwan, Korea, and even China to a large extent produces lots and lots of English speakers who want to come to the US. Britain might produce a lot of English speakers, but not so many that want to come to the US.
Having said that, I certainly agree that the point system for fluency in English should be adjusted down. But not eliminated. So, cut it by 2/3 or 1/2 and we’re pretty good.
This means that the WH proposal would value an English-fluent immigrant without even a high school diploma over a foreign-educated obstetrician with English skills more than good enough to get into US universities, though below the 60% cutoff. Is anyone willing to defend that proposal?
Fluent english is a skill people can learn. This plan will incentive smart people to improve their english if they hope to immigrate. People who speak english better make more money and are more productive.
But it’s not “no english” – it’s “below 60 percentile proficiency”, which as was just linked can be good enough to get into US universities. Thus this policy values a foreign obstetrician with decent but not perfect English (good enough to get into US universities) less than an English-fluent person with no HS diploma at all.
But if those English speakers are just decent with English, and score under the 60 percentile (even if they’re good enough to get into US schools), then they get no points at all for their English.
If you look at Canada as a comparison, the minimum number of points you get for language is 16 and the maximum is 28. To get the minimum, Those that do not meet that minimum level are not eligible to apply. For comparison, a bachelor’s degree gets you 22 points.
The full list of education points:
Do you have a cite that fluent English speakers with no diploma make more money than foreign-educated M.D.s with decent but not fluent English? Do you really believe that we should prioritize the former over the latter?
What are the Canadian point values for various levels of language ability?
Are a Doctor and her husband the engineer likely to live in a poor neighborhood? Unlikely.
Is the foreign educated MD educated at a med school that is certified by the US, and so can practice medicine in the US or is the MD from the University of Outer Nowhereistan?
If they’re immigrants, they’re more likely to live in an immigrant community with other folks from their country/region. Those are often poorer neighborhoods, in my understanding.
Let’s assume that the foreign educate MD went to the very best foreign school, which (unless I’m reading the cite about points incorrectly) still gets fewer points than perfect English.
I still think you’re avoiding the substance of my argument, and as a personal favor to me could you try to address it?
You said “for all categories”. That would include the “no English” category, no?
I’m having trouble understanding your argument because you are being imprecise in your categorizations and making some rather sweeping statements. I’m happy to address your argument as soon as you clearly state what it is.
This point system lumps together “no English” with “decent English” up to the 60 percentile score. Thus this policy values a foreign obstetrician with decent (say, 59 percentile on the English test) but not perfect English (good enough to get into US universities – as linked upthread, 60% is about 88 on the TOEFL, and US universities require an 80 on the TOEFL) less than an English-fluent person with no HS diploma at all.
Isn’t that crazy, or do you think that’s at all reasonable?
Is there some part of this position that isn’t clearly stated?