Trump has declared war on the GOP, Paul Ryan.

[The_Tooth]

I know he said that, but I was never under the impression he’d get the chance to put his stellar foreign policy ideas into effect.

[Shodan]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

I suspect that Ryan sees the Tea Party as rats that have infested the Grand Old Party. If in this election he can lock the barn and let the whole thing burn to the ground, he can rebuild atop the smoldering ruins, sans rats. He’s probably fine with the implosion of the Trump campaign, and even with reverse coattails, as long as the main victims are Tea Partiers.

But I’m basing that purely off speculation.

I don’t see what Trump has to do with Tea Party Republicans. If you meant Ryan’s speech back in February, it didn’t sound to me like he wanted the Tea Party out of the GOP. The one he wants to get rid of is Trump. Even then, Ryan was saying things in opposition to Trump

[So we need to be inspirational. We need to be inclusive. We need to show how our principles and policies are universal and how they apply to everybody. We know that the economy is weak. We know that the world is on fire. We know that the future is uncertain. There’s a lot of frustration and anger out there. And is it justified? It sure is.

But we should not follow the Democrats and play identity politics. Let’s talk to people in ways that unite us and that are unique to America’s founding. That’s what I think people are hungry for.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2016/02/03/paul-ryan-to-tea-party-you-are-the-problem/?utm_term=.a5ae7f805fb5)

If you mean Pence being selected as VP, I think that is just tokenism by Trump.

Ryan is Speaker. He wants (IMO) a better GOP, at least in the sense of a GOP that wins elections. Trump ain’t gonna win - I for one am hoping that Ryan and others can reform the GOP to win elections based on conservative principles, and not the kind of mindless populism Trump espouses.

But I am basing this on speculation too.

Regards,
Shodan

[Wesley_Clark]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

I’ve not read that article, but in my ignorance I agree with you :). FWIW, Ryan is the sort of conservative that I stridently disagree with and cordially dislike and think is being a weaselly politician about the whole Trump thing (UNENDORSE THE MOTHERFUCKER ALREADY, RYAN!)–but is STILL someone I’d welcome as the loyal opposition. I think the country would be worse off under a Ryan presidency, but to borrow PJ O’Rourke’s fantastic endorsement of Clinton, he’s wrong, but “wrong within normal parameters.”

That was basically my attitude toward Romney as well.

I suspect that Ryan sees the Tea Party as rats that have infested the Grand Old Party. If in this election he can lock the barn and let the whole thing burn to the ground, he can rebuild atop the smoldering ruins, sans rats. He’s probably fine with the implosion of the Trump campaign, and even with reverse coattails, as long as the main victims are Tea Partiers.

But I’m basing that purely off speculation.

Disagree. Ryan has been criticized for using made up numbers to support his economic agenda and for pushing reform on health and pensions that will hurt a lot of people and not do much to fix these problems.

He isn’t quality opposition. Like Trump he lives in a fantasy land of willful ignorance. He just has better social skills.

An intellectually honest gop with integrity and good ideas that has an interest in solving problems would be nice but that doesn’t exist by and large anymore. At least not on the federal level.

[snowthx]

@Richard_Parker

Finally, it gets harder and harder each cycle to try for the “crazy old white guy” strategy. 2016 may prove that that strategy was already dead. And it will be even deader in 2020.
Maybe there’s a strain of toxic populism that appeals more to millenials ala Bernie Sanders. But that strikes me as even more unlikely to represent a winning electoral coaliation.

I agree, but with the Romney loss, I remember hearing statements about the candidate not being far enough to the right. This time it seems (to me) like they went too far, but I dunno - I expect there will be people saying Trump was the wrong kind of right-wing candidate - too flawed - there will be a better, and further right, candidate next time.

Altho, the GOP primary process this time nearly guaranteed the most unacceptable candidate for the non-GOP/undecided electorate. But that is a topic for another thread.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Shodan

I don’t see what Trump has to do with Tea Party Republicans.

Interesting. This article has a fairly nuanced take on the issue: it suggests (and here I’m paraphrasing and hope you’ll read the article to see if you agree with my paraphrase, so please don’t think I’m trying to mislead) that the Tea Party is in some ways responsible and in others in opposition to Trump’s rise.

It’s responsible in the sense that for year the Tea Party has encouraged upstarts and sneered at establishment Republicans and pooh-poohed the idea that political experience is a virtue for a politician; it’s encouraged a populism with (and here I’m straying from the article) a significant anti-immigrant and white supremacist undertone, an undertone Trump has turned into an overtone.

It’s not responsible in the sense that the Tea Party has tended to value a loyalty to party principle over anything else, whereas Trump has talked the talk about reaching across the aisle; Tea Partiers tend to regard reaching across the aisle as a vice, not a virtue.

On a related note, the Tea Party SuperPAC has endorsed Trump. I’m not aware of a significant number of Tea Party luminaries (Beck being the exception) who have repudiated Trump.

Overall, I do think that the angry antiestablishment and antifactual and antiminority populism of the Tea Party flung the gates wide open for Trump.

@Wesley_Clark

Disagree. Ryan has been criticized for using made up numbers to support his economic agenda and for pushing reform on health and pensions that will hurt a lot of people and not do much to fix these problems.

I don’t want to let the mediocre be the enemy of the bad here. Ryan is in no way an ideal loyal opposition. There’s plenty to despise about him; my disagreement with his numbers pales in comparison to my disagreement with his continued endorsement of Trump through all his racism and Islamophobia and misogyny. But he’s still light years better than Trump or Cruz.

[Euphonious_Polemic]

@The_Tooth

I know he said that, but I was never under the impression he’d get the chance to put his stellar foreign policy ideas into effect.

“Vote Trump; He’s too incompetent to enact any of his crazy ideas”

[Boyo_Jim]

@Steve_MB

The problem is that if they offend the batshit brigade to the point of losing their votes, the result will be an electoral bloodbath that will cost them both houses of Congress.

This is not a problem. This is an opportunity.

[elucidator]

Now, Universe, I know I haven’t been a very good pantheist…

[Kent_Clark]

@Happy_Lendervedder

Well now I’m curious which Congressional races have Republican incumbents in districts where Trump is polling decent, and whose Congressperson has distanced him/herself from Donald (and where the Democratic candidate isn’t a complete putz). Essentially, for those of us looking to divert our Hillary donations to Congressional races that may flip as a result of Don’s War, which Congressional races are those?

ETA: I’ve found possibly Emily Cain in ME and Terri Bonhoff is MN. Anyone have info on those races? Would donations there be wasted money?

In the Missouri 2nd, the incumbent Republican Ann Wagner has renounced Trump. But the 2nd is a pretty red district, and in 2012, Wagner renounced Todd Akin and still got more votes than Akin ever had when he represented the district. The Democratic challenger, Bill Otto, is a reasonable challenger, but I think Wagner is pretty bulletproof.

[The_Other_Waldo_Pepper]

@The_Tooth

So, the time when Republicans were too busy invading countries under false pretenses and having people tortured to put effort into making fools of themselves.

Great.

I prefer Trumpian lunacy; it gets fewer people killed.

Yet.

[The_Tooth]

@Euphonious_Polemic

“Vote Trump; He’s too incompetent to enact any of his crazy ideas”

I wouldn’t be surprised if his campaign, if such it be, floated that one out there along with “You have nothing to lose”. But between the semi-colon and the four-syllable word it’s too much for his base.

[quimper]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Populism isn’t necessarily toxic

Can you point to some non-toxic examples then? I’m drawing a blank (seriously).

[Malthus]

@Euphonious_Polemic

“Vote Trump; He’s too incompetent to enact any of his crazy ideas”

Personally, I like the theory that, in the greatest exercise in trolling the world has ever seen, Trump’s plan all along was to sabotage and destroy the Republican Party at the behest of Hillary.

After the election:

“Lying Hillary hired me to destroy the GOP for her, which proves how crooked she really is. See? I was right all along!”

Mind. Blown.

[No, I don’t actually believe this. ]

[Wesley_Clark]

@quimper

Can you point to some non-toxic examples then? I’m drawing a blank (seriously).

Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders

[Tamerlane]

@Malthus

Personally, I like the theory that, in the greatest exercise in trolling the world has ever seen, Trump’s plan all along was to sabotage and destroy the Republican Party at the behest of Hillary.
[No, I don’t actually believe this. ]

There do seem to be a few folks at Red State who do ;).

[CarnalK]

@quimper

Can you point to some non-toxic examples then? I’m drawing a blank (seriously).

I think one notable American success of the populist movement was the direct election of Senators rather than through state legislatures. I leave it to you as to whether that’s “non-toxic”.

[Aspenglow]

I’ve only skimmed the conversation to this point, so apologies if someone else has already stated something like this.

The smartest thing Republicans could do today is fully repudiate their nominee. If they don’t, they will sacrifice not just the election, but the integrity of the entire process.

Further, their nutty base is already so whipped up, I am genuinely afraid for Clinton, Obama and others around them. I fear an assassination attempt cannot be far off – especially with the escalating rhetoric about locking her up and having the election “stolen” from the alt-right crowd.

I am glad the Republican party is imploding, as it is long overdue to do. But with this event comes some potentially serious consequences.

[Corry_El]

@CarnalK

538 is a number crunching site and that pile of sloppy thinking article is a good reason it should stay that way. First off, looking at their own chart, Ryan’s approval ratings started dropping well before Trump became sole survivor and bottomed out weeks after the endorsement. So right off the bat it’s bullshitting. It then handwaves away the fact that Ryan is perfectly safe in his current seat. I’m sure Ryan wants the party to grow and maybe someday wants a run at the big job but the article is completely one-sided by failing to mention the positive implications of not embracing Trump for those endeavors.

I agree that article misses the point, another aspect of which is that Ryan, safe in his own seat as you say, right now needs voters for vote for other GOP House members in order to remain Speaker. He doesn’t necessarily need those voters to approve of him. In fact it’s possible he can act as a lightning rod in protecting those other Republicans by eg. backing away from Trump and absorbing Trump’s wrath himself. That’s probably his idea here actually.

However I think Ryan and GOP would have been better off if he just was quiet about Trump and emphasizing helping his members. That’s what McConnell does, you never hear him speaking either way about Trump.

[Superdude]

George Will has eviscerated Trump in a recent column:

Opinion | Donald Trump is the GOP’s chemotherapy

[Chefguy]

@Euphonious_Polemic

Does Trump know that these polls are completely bogus? Is he actually that stupid and self deluded, or is this just bluster for his base? How stupid is he really?

Ipse dixit. Trump’s face should appear next to this in the dictionary.