Try to make ends meet; you're a slave to money; then you die.

And how were those technological advances made? By people who had the ‘leisure’ to think about things in a new and different way. Sometime they were compensated for this, sometimes not. But they weren’t forced to grow food, make clothes, build shelter, etc. They were allowed the freedom to think/design/experiment/construct.

Clothing material. Be it cotton/leather/synthetic. Are you saying that if people quit growing cotton, raising cattle, or running chemical plants that there would be enough of these things to go around, given the current world population?

Who makes you do this now? Figure out how much you spend on basic survival in a week, take your hourly rate, divide the two numbers, work that many hours a week. Gee, that was hard.

grem

No, the fact that I need money to live makes me a slave of money. Or, otherwise, I choose to be a slave to money.

As I explained in the OP, I am part of a system that requires others to do the same. Therefore, I share in the doing.

You are thinking of the word “prisoner.” A slave always has a choice whether or not to be a slave.

Everytime I spend money, thanks for reminding me.

Who crime is it then? It is not my crime? It is not your crime? Is this the “we were just following orders” defense? “Everybody does it, it must be OK”? That just doesn’t wash. It is my crime – I’m an accessory.

That isn’t exclusively the realm of evil. Robbing others of their self-determination would also be wrong.

Who said anything about goods? I’m talking about being part of the economic system. If you are arguing this is moral, state your case.

So what you are saying is, my desire to act in a moral way and love my neighbor is my problem, and so I should not do that? That’s somewhat surprising coming from you, Tris.

Wait. You’ve been on the rods, jmullaney. So have I. We’re both still alive. Obviously, this idea of forced slavery for survival is baseless. Now then, it is necessary to work within a system in order to reap the benefits of that system. In other words, it is the system of exchanging money for labor and goods that allows luxury. If you feel that you have no need for the luxury afforded by a system, you have no reason to invest in that system. Your labor is not necessary for the survival of the system and your survival is not dependent upon the system.

Don’t like money? Give it up. Don’t like working for “the man”? Stop. You won’t die and you know it.

I seem to have overlooked your point. Can ya help me out here?

jmullaney, are you going to provide that cite? Or are you simply going to continue to pretend you’re asserting something that’s common knowledge?

jmullaney

Ok, I admit it. I have no clue at all what you are talking about. If you think failing to destroy the world’s economy on your own is somehow a demonstration of your lack of moral character, I can tell you right now that we don’t have enough common ground to begin a discussion.

The world is not of your making. You do bear the responsibility for doing what you can, and refusing to do what you know is wrong. If you think that includes ending world economic infrastructure entirely I think you should think about it some more.

But I don’t get it at all.

Money is just counting equipment. Really. It doesn’t have any value you don’t agree to assign to it. The fact is that a whole lot of people do believe it has value. Some of them probably believe it has a bit more real worth than it has. But that doesn’t make me a slave. It doesn’t make you one either.

Barter is legal. So is gardening, for that matter.

You seem to be helping yourself to a great deal of misery for no particular reason. Perhaps it is guilt to which you are enslaved?

Tris

If we’ve made progress, why do we have less liesure time now that before the technological progess? Wouldn’t the opposite normally be the case?

Room for improvement.

Very true. But the overall human manhours required now is greater than ever before in history, and there seems to be no good reason for it.

Right, right. Slave, money, food.

Economic slavery began due to a scarcity of resources we’ve long since conquered. There seems to be now good reason to perpetuate it excepting the fact no one knows how to shut it off.

If you can live with your immorality, fine. But you have to admit, you are part of an immoral system.

You can’t possibly mean everyone died before there was money because they did not have money to buy food.

1)You just said people have to work for money in order to buy food.
2)Thus they are slaves to money, and are forced to work for money, lest they starve and die.

What part of the words “forced” and “labor” are you missing?

Is this labor greater than the work required to maintain ones life in the “natural order”? Yes. I’ll try to get pldennison a cite on how long our primitive ancestors worked to feed shelter and clothe themselves.

Shouldn’t our technology allow us to labor even less than cavemen and not more, while still allowing a sliver of time in there to promote and maintain or scientific and technological and medical advances? You would think so.

I don’t think that is unreasonable. If the twenty hours “extra” we work each week could all be explained away by medical work, that would mean half of us must be doctors.

It is impossible to argue against your “Caveman worked twenty hours a wekk” strawman.

BTW, youare not a slave because you need money to eat. Using your logic, you are simply a slave because you need to eat. Why is spending “Twenty hours” counting beans and exhchanging that wage for food less moral then spending that tweny hours directly in making and gathering my own food? Although to be accurate, thanks to specialization, i can probably work two hours at my current job in exchange for essentially not having to work twenty of my own gathering food.

jmullaney, it seems like you find it immoral to participate in the current “system” because you think it is harmful to other people; the system “enslaves” them. What some people are trying to tell you is that they don’t consider themselves harmed. Whether or not you think you are harmed personally is your own business, but you are presuming to decide for others. If they don’t think they are harmed, then your participation isn’t immoral.

“A slave always has a choice whether or not to be a slave.”
Can you explain this quote? I think the millions of slaves throughout history would disagree.

By the way, if the “extra twenty hours” went into medical work, that doesn’t mean half of us would be doctors. There are also the nurses, lab techs, pharmacists, researchers, builders of hopitals, manufacturers of medical equipment, and so on. Are they all slaves, too?

Hi Tymp!

Shhhh…! Aw, heck. So much for being the devil’s advocate here.

I’m just trying to show the immorality inherent in the system. ('elp, 'elp, I’m being oppressed!).

It doesn’t bother me too much since, yes, I know people really don’t have to be part of the system in order to survive, for the most part. At least here in the present day U.S.

However, this one point I am playing the fool about, you will notice, is about the only point I can get anyone to “agree” with me on.

The system really takes advantage of those who don’t know they can live without it. And there are places from Egypt to China where people don’t have the possiblity of choosing not to be a part of the system without risking imprisonment or worse.

The shortest — and most dead-on accurate — synopsis of Human Action by Ludwig von Mises that I’ve seen to date.

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You seem hung up on this leisure thing. What the heck did cavemen do for fun? Is down time really the same thing as leisure?

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And we've got a lot to show for it.

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Even without money I’d still have to work for survival.

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No immoral system here. And nothing you’ve said so far points to it being immoral.

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No. But they would die if they decided they didn’t want to be a slave to reality. Ie. they don’t feel like working.

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I see no examples of forced labor. If they weren’t working “for money” they’d be working for something else in order to live. Here’s your lesson in reality for the day. Human beings must work for survival.

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If you think their lives were so great why not give it a try? Learn the skills required to live like they did and head up to Alaska for a few years. Then let me know how much better it was back then then it was now.

Marc

I didn’t say that. I merely said the system is immoral and I am immoral for participating in it.

So do I bear such a responsibility not to do wrong in your estimation, or don’t I? Or are you going to carve out an exception everytime you feel like it? I mean, your indulgences means a lot Tymp, but that doesn’t mean my actions aren’t immoral because you give me a free pass.

Sometimes I feel bad about exploiting others. Sometimes I think they are weak fools who get what they deserve. If you are going to be immoral, make the most of it, right?

That’s cute, Trisk. No.

Gilligan – maybe these people are not “harmed” because they are in the system for the same greedy reasons I am and thus feel they are justly rewarded, as I do. They can not possibly imagine the world as a better place. But just because they aren’t harmed doesn’t not mean that there are not others who are harmed. Your logic is flawed for this reason.

A slave can always choose not to be a slave because being a slave implies consent. No one can make you do something you do not want to do. A prisoner can not, on the otherhand, choose not to be a prisoner.

You can work two hours at your job to pay for food clothing and shelter for a week? Don’t you think you might be the exception to the rule?

You seem hung up on avoiding the question.

If we’ve made progress, why do we have less liesure time now that before the technological progess? Wouldn’t the opposite normally be the case? Whoa, deja vu!

Well, if you can’t see why a system which forces people to do things against their will is immoral, we don’t have a basis for discussion.

So now you are equating eating with slavery?

If we’ve made progress, why do we have less liesure time now that before the technological progess? Wouldn’t the opposite normally be the case? Whoa deja vu. Whoa, deja vu.

Shouldn’t our technology allow us to labor even less than cavemen and not more, while still allowing a sliver of time in there to promote and maintain or scientific and technological and medical advances? You would think so.

Oh wait, are you going to debate with me or just repeat yourself again?

Well, considering that is not what I said…

:confused: Oh, so you have a really hard time bending over?

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There is no basis for discussion because your premise is irrational. So I therefore bow out of the discussion.

Marc

I don’t see what you care about morality. Perhaps we need a common definition here. Earning money isn’t immoral. You haven’t proved that yet. You’re free to starve and, if no one takes pity on you, die. I’m not being unkind (tho in your case I’m tempted), but merely enlightening you on a fact of life. People do it all over the world, as you noted. Should I feel guilty about earning money? Nope. Nhilism won’t get us anywhere.

Your point is taken about some people being harmed, jmullaney. I should have taken that into account. I still disagree about slavery, though. People who have been enslaved in the past (and in the present, still) could be said to have a “choice” not to do what their master told them, but if that choice meant death, which it often did, is that really consent and freedom? If it is, how is it any different from being free not to have to work for survival?

Saint Zero – only tempted?

I would start with a common definition of morality as being described by the Golden Rule or Kant’s moral imperative, I suppose, take your pick, as acted upon by an ideally rational and empathic person.

And yes, I suppose earning money isn’t strictly in and of itself immoral, but the fact that you earn money in order to spend it, and that no man is an island, leads to it’s immoral nature, because the end result is a universal social contract to which people are forced to consent in order to have a basic “standard of living” (another term I’ll leave hanging undefined for the moment). That social contract is no different than any other which spits out of the machinery of a moral imperative system.

The argument that some have given – that the system is moral because the ends justify the means – is invalid. They set up the strawman that without the forced consent inherent in the system, we’d have total anarchy, no specialization, and no economies of scale – for which they can offer no evidence. So my response, which is accused of being just as much of a strawman – perhaps rightly so – is that, even in mankind’s earliest days without technology or large economies of scale, there was still a division of labor and man survived with much less effort than what is required of the average person in the modern economy. So all we are doing is scaring away crows anyway. They would have me believe it took more effort for a stone age man to live (160 hours to kill a bison perhaps?) but hopefully some expert on the stone age will show up to refute that. I would argue that a free people are more productive that people who inherently aren’t free, and that technology tends to advance faster in less stifled economies.

Not that it matters anyway, because the “ends justify the means” argument for excusing the immorality doesn’t undermine the premise that the system is immoral to begin with.

Gilligan – I suppose the choice between doing what you are told and death doesn’t sound like a very free system, but, it is. But, bear with me. Again, I’m not denying you have to “work” for survival – the question is, are you working too hard and causing others harm? And, is there really slack built into the system which would allow you not ultimately to face that death choice? I have been told that in Egypt, if you quit your job and refuse to work you go to prison. In Red China, well, I shudder to think. In the U.S. though, you can live fairly well.

Now I’m not particularily drawn towards doing what is moral myself anymore. The real slaves are paid off and staid, as the song goes. Some people are convinced, however, that morality is the way to go though, for a variety of reasons, and they should consider what I’m saying.