The difference, and therefore the flaw in my analogy, I suppose, is that nowhere in my analogy did I sign a document allowing for the possibility of and agreeing to a search.
Because this woman, by purchasing the ticket, did just that.
Don’t like it? Well, then, you’ve got choices. See above.
Thanks for that disturbing image aruvqan. I think I need to bleach my brain.
What I found truely telling in your post Happy Scrappy Hero Pup is that you actually believe these sorts of searches protect you?
I doubt many people here are really talking about being searched, it’s the fact that the searches are just stupid. Really really stupid.
A bra full of C4 seems to be the next “WMD” for the US government. If a REAL fucking terrorist wanted to bomb an aircraft and had a women willing to die to do so, a fucking “back of the hand” breast search isn’t going to stop shit.
Yeah yeah, so the russian terrorists might have (how would they know really?) worn some sort of pouch. That shouldn’t have made it through security but what exactly are you going to do with terrorists putting stuff inside them? Or having it surgically implanted?
The fact is, none of the current security measures except the metal detector and x-ray have improved security. Guns are metal and easy to detect. C4 probably doesn’t even show up on x-ray (or does it?) and because it can be shaped it’s going to be the bomb of choice for your fashionable terrorist.
If I’m going to have the exact same chance of being blown up with or without “special” security, I’d rather have basic security.
Also, I don’t remember you Americans “voting” for these security measures. It’s more like “in the name of security we’re doing this shit and anyone who argues is a terrorist”. If you guys DID vote this shit in, congrates on the upcoming collapse of your airline and tourist industry.
Perhaps explosives aren’t the only things they are looking for. What about non-metallic knives? Dogs and metal detectors aren’t good enough for those.
By the way, for those who thinks a breast patdown is too much, would a backscatter X-ray imager be better or worse?
I think Badmana nailed it.
Heh, I’ve seen images generated by this thing. It’s pretty neat.
I’d be ok with it’s use as long as, like they say in the article, shit doesn’t appear on the internet.
Of course this machine is COMPLETELY useless for detecting internally hidden bombs but it’s still kinda cool.
Also, how much x-ray radiation does it put out?
the rabbithole has no bottom in this case. How about a CD jewel case? Innocent enough, until I snap the cover into a few pieces that will slice quite nicely.
They should ban those too. :rolleyes:
Do I believe they work? That’s a nuanced question. I think it’s more in terms of “effectiveness.”
In that case, with regard to current security protocols: I believe they’re better than “no security measures.” I don’t believe they’re as good as “make everyone fly naked.”
Problem is, one end is absolutely vulnerable, and the other end violates all kinds of individual rights. So you have to find the middle ground.
I will continue to believe that these security measures, ineffective as they might be relative to mandatory MRI, are acceptable to the American people because the American people continue to fly despite them.
I have seen no significant effort, be it grassroots, consumer-activist, or human-rights-based, to alter these protocols. In fact, the biggest negative publicity the search procedure gets is when someone doesn’t read before they sign.
I want to make it perfectly clear that I do not support the sanctioned violation of individual rights. And I am quite cognizant of the fact that other people consider things I find inconvenient to be intrusive and insulting. And I support their right to feel that way.
But don’t, in the private, duress-free environment of your own home, sign a document of consent and then withdraw that consent when called upon. Because then you’re not a martyr. At best, you’re an idiot who should have read what he signed, and at worst, you’re a selfish hypocrite who explicitly says one thing and then attempts to weasel out when it inconveniences you.
The woman who is the subject of the OP: She signed a contract. She was called upon to fulfill her end of the bargain. She didn’t like that, and is trying to garner sympathy. She gets none from me.
There was something a couple years ago about airport security being very poor, and that some bad people exploited said poor security to do something bad. I am sure the news has reached you.
And I’m sure it would be of great comfort to the families of those 300 people if the government said to the bereaved: “Hey! It was JUST 300 people!”
The truth is that knuckleheads like you are a dime a dozen. All you can do is sit back and criticize legitimate efforts to try to head off known dangers to people’s safety. Fine, I understand that people may have different opinions about whether a woman should not have her breast touched during a search. But that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the snarky, “the government shouldn’t worry so much about X, because I think terrorists would rather do Y.”
Well, guess what, smarty-pants: the government has a responsibility to worry about X, Y, Z, and A, B, and C, too. It’s a goddamn tough job, and your Monday-morning terrorist quarterbacking doesn’t help anything.
You and your ilk may always have some bright idea to circumvent security – like your “surgically implanted bombs” – and yes, there is no conceivable defense for that. But simply because you managed to IMAGINE that terrorists could have doctors put bombs in their gut does not mean that REAL LIFE terrorists wouldn’t try to conceal something where they believe airport security would not check. The Chechen terrorists who brought down those airliners would have been stopped if they had been frisked, no doubt, because their bombs were not surgically implanted. Imagine that! Moreover, your comment that “a back of the hand search” wouldn’t have stopped them is just fantasy in the extreme. What part of “frisking” means “not finding things concealed under one’s clothing?”
The truth is that there is no 100% security solution for any particular threat. But decent security can foil some plots, and the flying public, whether they are Ameican or Canadian, have a right to expect decent security. I think frisking people to stop terrorists, potential hijackers, or others carrying weapons is an integral part of decent security. You do realize, don’t you, that there are more threats to aircraft than only another 9-11 episode?
Well, Mr. Big Time Security Expert, if you bothered to travel more you’d probably know that most European countries have had military patrols with real-live soldiers carrying real-live machine guns for many years before 9-11. And, if anything, I have found in my travels that European security is basically the equal to American security, except that they are usually better organized. But then again, I suppose it’s too much to ask to have you know something about what you’re talking about before you say it.
Exactly.
I don’t have to agree with the special securities, but if I decide to fly knowing they exist I have agreed to them. The place to voice my disagreement is before I purchase the ticket, not in line at an airport.
Who said anything about one extreme of the other? I’m all for bags being scanned and people walking through metal detectors.
But that’s where it should end. There’s no need to pat someone down because they have big tits and might be carrying WMD. Or forcing an old person to be strip searched. Or forcing a mother with a child to have to drink her own breast milk. Hell, they even have silly restrictions on nail cutters but not the hundreds of other items that can be used to cut someone! I swear the rules were written up by monkeys.
There is a point where more security checks do less to actually secure anything. The TSA has gone off the deep end, thinking all these checks do ANYTHING to increase security. And you guys buy it. That’s the fucking sad part. You really think shit like this deters a terrorist who’s willing to die just to make a point. That’s just sad and the real threat to your personal security.
I know it’s a common saying but the terrorist have really already won. Even if no other American deaths happen due to terrorism, the TSA has the authority to do whatever it wants. Just wait until they start doing body cavity searches “for your safety”.
Oh, and sure, she bought a ticket that might have said “we reserve the right to molest you as we please in the name of security, up to and including body cavity searches” but it doesn’t make it right. Again, I believe in security, I don’t believe what the TSA is currently doing has ANYTHING to do with security though.
And I’m not arguing for this particular women in the OP. Just in general. Big tits != WMD packing women unless we’re talking about Janet Jackson 
Yeah, we know that already.
Ummm… that’s NOT where it should end. It should end where the majority says it should, not where you say it should. And a frisking might have stopped the Chechen bombers, so why not implement it here?
Cite?
Nothing deters a terrorist who wants to die for his cause. Nobody disputes that. But a terrorist dying in the screening room is better than one dying on an airborne plane. It’s not about prevention. There can never be prevention. It’s about reduction, and searches accomplish this.
If they start trying to enforce the BCS rule, you’ll likely see a lot more resistance and a lot more suits. That you do not see that much protest now indicates acceptability of what exists now.
No, it doesn’t make it “right,” it makes it a condition. One that you do not have to accept. But those who do sign do accept it freely. And they, therefore, at least believe in the TSA enough to submit to it. So if you don’t believe in the TSA, you can walk or drive or fly a less “secure” airline, and I support and defend your right to do it.
It’s not about her tits. It’s never been about her tits. It’s about the space BELOW her tits and what could have been hidden there. She made it about her tits when she complained.
Badmana, I know you’re full of indignation, and I’m not even disagreeing with you. But you need to accept the fact that the rules are what they are and if you think they ought to be changed, you should find an effective avenue for that change. Right now your argument is “It’s not right and I don’t believe in it.” Well, too bad. Enough people do (or, conversely, not enough people are against it) so that’s how it is.
Frankly, I’m in the camp that thinks us americans are freaking-the-hell-out.
Why, exactly, aren’t full body cavity searches conducted on all passengers right now? Is it because they are too time-consuming? Is it because a lot of people would ultimately refuse to purchase an airline ticket, because they are going to be violated every time they fly? I would hope it’s because of the latter, but every now and then I actually think it’s because of the former.
I think that this is the basic premise, on which all of this extra security is based. It’s the whole idea of “Why lock your office door, if someone could get into your office by lifting the ceiling tiles, and climbing in via the ceiling?”, a.k.a. the “Weakest Link” property.
My problem with applying the “Weakest Link” property to airline screening, is that you would have to incorporate full body cavity searches on all passengers, or else that’s going to be your weakest link. Think this is taking things a little too far? Take a step back, and look where our security is now, as opposed to where it was before 9/11; I think we passed the “too far” line about 3 years ago. (That’s not to say that airport security was great, pre-9/11; only that we’ve really gone past the bounds of logic, post-9/11.)
I understand what you are saying here, and I agree (on a basic level).
That being said, I give her sympathy, because, IMHO, she’s been victimized (as we all have) by this terrorist-could-strike-us-at-anytime-with-a-nuclear-bomb-hidden-up-their-ass paranoia, that has taken over our country. While she couldn’t board the airplane, because she didn’t “fulfill her end of the bargain”, she most certainly can complain about the ridiculous state of our paranoia.
LilShieste
I’ve never worked with C4. Can you explain the explosive power of a stick-of-butter-sized mass of C4 in terms of sticks of dynamite? How much damage could that do? Just how potent is this stuff?
It’s all about tradeoffs. When I studied Operations management, we talked a lot about production quality, this is a similar problem. You cannot have perfect quality, it costs too much. That doesn’t mean you throw caution to the wind and don’t test your product. You find a balance point where you can still build a quality product but do it at an affordable cost. In this case, you balance discouraging terrorists with the monetary cost and goodwill cost of searching passengers.
Is pulling a couple of people per flight aside and frisking them going too far, not going far enough? It’s a debatable point, there is no clear answer. I’ve been one of those pulled aside, had my bags searched and been patted down. Didn’t seem like a big deal then, doesn’t seem like a big deal now, so in my opinion, it’s not going too far.
The American people do not continue to fly “despite” these measures, they continue to fly because they have no choice; because it’s required by their job, because they need to be on the other side of the world and cannot afford the time to use another method of transport, or because they feel assured that they will be one of those who isn’t caught by the roll of computer dice and assigned for a “random” extra search, and even if they are, the airlines have made it so expensive to cancel a ticket last minute now, most who object in all but the most extraordinary terms – like the woman we’ve been discussing – will tolerate security “invasions” because it would be too costly for them to do otherwise.
It’s a rock and hard place situation, except in this case, since the rock is an agency of our government, we ought to be able to move the rock. And the more people who raise a stink about this nonsense, the more likely such movement becomes.
However, if it’s not a big deal to you to have private areas of your body touched by a stranger who is more likely than not to have a bad attitude, by all means, have at it. As the rate and invasiveness of personal searches increases, I hope you enjoy them.
As for the rest of us, we’ll keep clogging up the highways as we drive (tired and cranky) hours to get to our destinations. Or we’ll continue to give up leisure travel altogether. We’ll continue to make it more expensive for you to fly because the more people who flee the airlines because of the hassles involved, the more they have to charge to make up the difference. We’ll continue to let USAirways and Delta slide into unrecoverable financial abyss, costing tens of thousands of people their employment and pensions.
And we’ll continue to rail against the ineffective, invasive and inefficient “security” measures enaged in by the TSA which, in 3 years, have embarrassed and degraded thousands of adults, scared scores of children, forced well-known television chefs to relinquish their cookware, relegated thousands of perfectly good, non-lethal tools (like those oh-so-dangerous nail clippers) to the trash heap, but have not stopped a single act of violence or terrorism.
The last time I flew, a lady who was either suffering from the beginnings of alopecia or undergoing chemotherapy, was forced to remove her wig in front of everyone in the security line. She asked to go into the privacy area and was told that wasn’t an option when all she was being asked to do was remove “headwear.” I saw her shortly thereafter in a ladies’ room where she was crying so hard she made herself vomit. Meanwhile, fully 25% of weapons, including simulated bombs, brought on board commercial airliners by testing agents were missed.
We don’t have safety or security. We have an illusion that’s being built on the unnecessary distress of innocent people.
If physical searches are necessary, then they are necessary for everyone. Every woman, regardless of age or size should have to have her breasts touched. Every passenger, male and female, should have to have their crotches touched. Everyone has obviously been deemed as a potential threat, so everyone should be treated as one.
I did mention TORONTO, CANADA there buddy. Europe has real concerns over security against terrorists. Toronto shouldn’t need machine gun toting hotshots protecting us against…what? Quebec? Same with the states. Terrorists aren’t exactly assaulting airports with squads of armed troops.
What I find funny is that, for all the “extra security” in place, would it have stopped 9/11 from happening? I doubt it. Box cutters are banned…fine. Yet keys and CDs (and several other possible weapons) are still allowed. And what happened to locking/securing the cockpit door? And armed pilots? WTF are we dragging our feet on 2 very easy and serious upgrades to security while the TSA does more “searches”?
The fact is, before, it used to be people with bombs with threats (fly me here etc). Now it’s people who just want to kill you even at the cost of your own life. There is no counter. None. 9/11 shouldn’t have been a surprise. I read about a plane crashing into capital hill (ironically by a Japanese pilot in Debt of Honour (I think) and I’m Japanese) years before it happend. And what about the shoe bomb? Only AFTER it happened did the government react. Now it’s going to be tough. How do you counter internal bombs? And don’t think it won’t/can’t happen. There are plenty of Russian doctors who I’m sure would do it for a fee.
That kind of thinking was why 9/11 happened. Pretending “it can’t happen!” only makes you blind to the possibilities.
See Cheesesteak reply.
What’s interesting is that if it was only a body count they were after, they could blow a bomb at the security check point. There are more people there crowded together than on an airplane (at least there was when I went through).
I agree with TeaElle. You aren’t seeing serious resistance because right now, most “pleasure” fliers aren’t flying. Most are business flights. I personally flew to Florida in 98 without trouble but I would never, in a million years, consider any flights from or to the US. I feel better spending my money in Cuba.
OK, seriously, is there a “less secured” airline available? I would take it. I know my Dominican Republic flight was not special in terms of security. They hand checked my disposable camera. I ended up thinking that was pretty silly. I could do a lot with a disposable camera but all they did was look it over and hand it back!
And I was under the impression she hitched up her shirt. Why did they bother frisking if she showed them? I’d be for women removing their bras (while clothed) but having them rubbed is silly.
Well, I’m bitching because it’s the pit!
I’ve already “voted” with my wallet. I haven’t been inside the US since 9/11. All my future vacations are planned well outside the US. I won’t even consider a cruise that enters a US port. I’m not worried about being bothered by security (asians don’t seem to be targetted like arabs) but I do worry about the reduction of freedom from the US government.
And face it, you didn’t “vote” for the changes. You were forced. None of you had any say over these changes. You (generic you) were duped into thinking it would make you safer. All it did was piss of the silent majority and reduce air travel. There is no way for you to even go back. Who would you “vote out” huh? The homeland security people don’t answer to you. They answer to people empowered by the terrorism scare.
At this point in time, I am not a member of the flying classes, and many of the details regarding prior consent for search have therefore escaped my notice. Additionally, my internet-searching resources (primarily those involving time) are somewhat limited, and I am a bit daunted by the task of finding the cite I am about to ask for.
Could someone be kind enough to provide me with a cite to the effect that Ms. Kingsford gave consent to the search as a condition of her purchase of an airline ticket?
Right, and all of the coding work done around Y2K was just a big fucking waste because nothing happened! All those idiots were complaining that our computer systems were going to fail, so we spend billions to “fix” it and nothing important went down anyway. It was all just a scam from the IT industry to soak us for more dough.
Badmana, I believe cockpit doors have been strengthened, no cite.