Why? If you play this right, the EU could grow into a world government someday! 
The christian party (CDU) might be in power soon in Germany. Beware!
Seriously…It depends on what kind of “islamic party” you have in mind.
By the way, I suppose it wouldn’t be possible to convince a mod to change the thread title to a paraphrased version that doesn’t make me constantly hear fiddle music with a twangy voice singing “Turkey in the E.U., turkey in the hay”…?
Thought not. Oh well.
When both meet the basic democratic and cultural standards the EU expect I’m sure we’ll be only too happy to consider their applications. 
With the UK having an ageing population profile and therefore a looming pensions crisis due to a low tax base unless we all work til we drop dead I want hard working immigrants paying my pension.
That’s my main beef with Turkey joining the EU. Then again, a good friend of mine lost family in the Armenian genocide, so I freely admit to being biased.
CJ
Doesn’t this apply to much of western Europe as well?
The issues to consider are:
- Why has the EU expanded in the past?; and
- Does the same rationales apply to Turkey?
There have been two types of expansion. The first, which we can largely put aside, has been the accession of fellow rich Western European countries to the Union (or Community, as it was in the past). Such countries included the UK, Denmark, Sweden, etc. The benefit for both sides was lowered trade barriers between significant trading partners, and increased trade bargaining, etc., clout for the Union as a whole.
The second, which is more germane, was with poorer nations on the fringes of Europe. This type of expansion began with Greece, Portugal and Spain in the Eighties, and exploded this decade with the inclusion of much of Central and Eastern Europe. The old rationales of increasing trade with significant partners and increased clout didn’t really apply - few, if any, of these members had much in the way of an economy, at least when accession talks began. Instead, the purpose was to ensure stable, friendly, and democratic neighbors. Greece, Portugal, and Spain all had been dictatorships for at least part of the 70s, and there was little assurance that they wouldn’t revert. The former Soviet bloc countries were at great risk of dictatorship or even anarchy after the Wall fell - witness Romania, Slovakia, and Bulgaria, to name some. The offer of membership made democracy and the rule of law much more attractive to the successor governments in Eastern Europe, thereby providing the EU with borders that did not provide a risk of (or a lesser risk of) civil war, smuggling, environmental degradation, etc.
So, what of Turkey? It is a poor, democratically fragile country on the borders of the EU, with a recent history of dictatorship. It is strategically important, and instability and chaos in Turkey will definitely affect the EU. Expansion to include Turkey would make the same sense that expansion to include Eastern Europe did. So, the EU should do it.
I’m not arguing that without EU membership, Turkey is doomed to dictatorship and chaos. But EU membership is an insurance policy against such a future.
Sua
It is kind of funny how people are worried about separation of church and state in Turkey. Many European countries have official state religions. I can think of one European country where the head of state is required by law to belong to a particular religion and is prohibited from marrying outside their religion. If that’s not a violation of separation of church and state I don’t know what is. Interestingly enough, this theocratic country is highly irreligious, amost no one attends church, and nobody cares.
The difference is in the UK we don’t take religion seriously so the actual influence of the Church of England on Govt policy is negligible and its ability to influence private behaviour zero.
Not that I see the current Turkish balance as any sort of problem. so long as they sign up to and stick to relevant European legislation I’m fine with it. I’m less fine with our own govt trying to wriggle out of inconvenient parts of the Human Rights Act.
Well, a year ago they tried to introduce a law punishing adultery by imprisonment. They were only forced to withdraw this proposed law when the EU said that they would be denied membership if they passed it.
It could be said that the EU has enough problems as it is harmonising the economies of many vastly different states without having to watch out for member countries trying to pass adultery laws on the quiet.
I think Turkey may become a bit of a puppet to the US in Euro affairs should they grant it membership. The Euro already has a lap dog with Britain.
That said if Turkish human rights practices, and changed I might feel differently.
Vatican City, right?
Many radical Islamists dream of a new Caliphate encompassing all the Muslim world. I doubt such a project could ever take hold because I can’t see any possible or even imaginable candidate for a new Caliph upon whom most Muslims would agree. But, if it were a possibility, Turkey’s membership in the EU would forestall the possibility of its being included, and might diminish its perceived legitimacy. In short, perhaps we should continue to encourage the Turks to look west, not east.
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Which one’s that? I don’t doubt you, I’m just curious to know. (Incidentally, apart from the “head of state … prohibited from marrying outside their religion” your description closely matches Norway.)
</hijack>
The concept “separation of church and state” isn’t such a – pardon the expression – sacred concept in many European countries as it’s in US. As you said yourself, and as tagos mentioned, there’s not neccessarily a strong correlation between religious trappings left in old laws and religious influence in modern politics.
The monarch of England has to be a member of the Anglican Church. The monarch of Denmark has to be a member of the Danish National Protestant Church. But those are only titular rulers.
Nonsense. Not saying I agree but there are many legitimate reasons to oppose Turkish membership of EU that have nothing to do with bigotry; economic, size, culture, religion, price tag, limits, etc. Writing it all off beforehand as simple bigotry is little helpful and a great deal arrogant. Also you’d be calling some 70% of EUs population bigoted, as only about 30% apparently favour a Turkish membership. That’s what, 320 million bigoted Europeans we have here? Personally I do think Turkey should be taken in. But only if a majority of Europeans think so too. Going across the wish of a clear majority is undemocratic.
Here’s the Turkish embassy in Denmark: http://www.turkembassy.dk
And here’s their link: Social Affairs-Religion: http://www.turkembassy.dk/social.htm
And under that the link: THE PATHWAY TO HAPPINESS: Islam: http://www.turkembassy.dk/mkt142.htm
And it has amongs other thing, this passage:
Don’t sound terrible secular to me. Do you have such descriptions of Christianity on American embassy sites? I didn’t find one on the US embassy in Denmark.
The Turkish ministry of religion defines secularism thus:
I.e. not an absence of religion (Islam) in public institutions, but a freedom for public institutions on how to interprent and transmit Islam. Moreover not merely teaching of, but proselyting of, Islam is, as per the Turkish constitution, a required part of the Turkish curricular in public as well as private school – unless you belong to one of the few acknowledged minorities (Jews, Greek-orthodox, Armenian Orthodox) and specifically ot out. Members of other religious groups (Syrian-Christians, Catholics, Protestants, etc.), (Sunni) Muslim or not, cannot get such dispensations, and are forced to sit through hours of proselyting and to go through the steps of practising Islam; praying, ritual cleansing, etc. There are many other problems re. the state and religion. Religious minorities are not allowed to buy new properties or even restore or repair existing churches and other holy sites, without first getting a state permission - which is seldom given. Foreign preaches from religious minorities may not preach in Turkish churches. In 1971 the Greek-Orthodox church had its school expropriated, and has since then not been able to train new priests.
Oh good. We’re hurling insults now without reading. I was clearly referring to Austria’s current actions and yes, I reckon that’s largely down to bigotry.
Why Austria was a sticking point
Euro Commission on Racial Intolerance re Austria
This is GD not the Pit. Try doing some research before jerking your knee and parsing posts for something to take offence to. That xenophobia runs deep in Austria isn’t exactly new. Any reasonably informed European knows this.
Kindly desist from extrapolating my opinions to suit yourself.
It seems to me it’s you doing most of the insulting here. And not that it makes a difference, but you “clearly” said no such thing. “It’s bigotry, pure and simple. As far as i’m concerned, not being religious, the EU isn’t Christian, it’s European.”” wherein in this do you clearly find a reference to Austria. This is really Internet debating ABC, but default is addressing the OP. If you are not addressing the OP but commenting some other post in the thread, you should state so specifically or quote the bits you are commenting on. Just happening to be below a post that had one mention of Austria in parentheses is not enough to make it clear that you were only talking about Austria. Alternatively you could have specifically said you were focusing solely on Austria or included some quotes that made it clear. etc. You did none of these things.
Not that it makes a difference. 90% of Austrians have some objections to Turkey joining the union. That’s more than 7 million people you with one sweeping hand arrogantly dismiss to a category of merely bigoted individuals. And saying xenophobia runs deep in Austria makes it little better, that’s about the same as saying something like we clearly should not let Turkey join the union as Turks are a bunch of bigoted korananimals.
What we need do if we want to be called democratic, is address the legitimate worries and questions that Austrians and the rest of Europeans have. Not dismiss them with mere insults. I for one want to know whether my children, if I should move to Turkey, if they would then be forced to sit through Muslim proselytization and doing Islamic prayers. We have Muslim Imams from Turkey in Denmark, but they won’t allow Danish priests in Turkey. That’s not going to work.
Vatican City isn’t a member of the European Union. They’d never get in with their human rights record, being an absolute monarchy and not allowing minority religions to be practiced.