Turning Back Airplanes/Canceling Flights - Prudent, or Crying Wolf?

Great Debates
21

I read the US is demanding armed guards on flights to the USA and at leat a couple of countries have refused and now the US government and those countries which have refused are looking for other ways acceptable to both sides. It seems to me the US government has been especially insensitive in telling other countries “THIS is what you shall do”. It would have been better to work things out with them beforehand.

Regarding the specific instances we are discussing I do not believe we have sufficient information to jusdge whether the US acted reasonably or not. If they had some serious information that we don’t know about then it might be justified but again, it all points at clumsy handling. You would think passengers are screened sufficiently. Regarding the pilots I would think the USA can easily demand any pilot flying to the USA pass a security screening too.

Unless and until we get more information supporting these actions they look like clumsy actions which only cause trouble for no gain.

One thing is for sure: the climate of insecurity is getting worse, not better. The aim of terrorists is not to kill people but to make people live in fear. Those who believed the USA invading Iraq and confronting the rest of the world would scare their enemies shitless and would make America feel safe again. . . it seems they were wrong. America does not feel safer now than a year ago.

22

Althoug I don’t agree completely, you make a point with that. It can be seen as one of their aims to destabilize by all means the normality in the targetted nations. Creating a sense of fear and insecurity is certainly part of that.

It must be said the the US is good at playing right into their game at any front they can possibly do.

Salaam. A

23

Have a blast.

Uh, maybe there’s a better way to phrase that…

24

I don’t think so.

Nevertheless…

Salaam. A

25

It’s unfortunate, but the last couple of years has made me cynical enough to believe that all of this is just political gamesmanship for public benefit. Rather than viewing these cancelled flights as crying wolf, though, I wonder if they aren’t designed to undercut the possibility of the recently-declared orange alert being perceived as crying wolf. In other words: “We’ve raised the alert level to orange a couple of times, and nothing has happened. Time to raise it again for the holidays. Hey, look, everybody’s making fun of us. Let’s actually do something this time to emphasize how serious we are! Then they won’t laugh the next time we go to orange.”

Like I said, it’s unfortunate that I should be so cynical as to believe there’s a possibility that something like this is going on. I’m not saying it is; I’m just saying it’s possible.

This, however, I agree with completely.

26

Originally posted by sailor
The aim of terrorists is not to kill people but to make people live in fear.

I am afraid you do not understand the reality and definition of “terrorism”. Killing people is only the means to the end which is terror. to this end they will use whatever means they find effective. That is what terrorism is no matter what means you use. Killing people is murder and it is only additionally terrorism if it instills fear in the population. the objective of the terrorists is terror, not killing a few Americans.

In that sense the terrorists and the government both benefit from the fear of the population. the terrorists are getting what they want and the government is getting popular support. The worse things get the more people will rally around the present government. Both President Bush and Bin laden are getting what they want when things get worse.

27

Not the whole truth. Fear as a result of murder serves the agenda behind terrorism. Which is about money, power and political and economical goals.

Salaam. A

28

From the Sydney Morning Hearald we have this.

Hmm… well, what else are you going to do with a suicide-hijacker? I can just see it:

Hijacker: “Allah Akbar! I am here to kill the Great Satan.” Sound of boxcutter slicing and dicing “Praise Allah, I am now in control of this Boeing 777 and ready to use the tool of the infidel Jew-lovers against them! A martyr’s death for me! Ha-ha!”

USAF: “OK, buddy, pull over to that cloud over there immediately or we shoot - I want to see your license and registration for that vehicle”

Hijacker: "Curses! Foiled! I was going to smash this jet into a vital building or important landmark, but now that the puny F-16 is here I must surrender! Oh, the shame, the shame!

Nope, I just don’t buy it - if the guy is planning to die the only way to stop him is to kill him, as far as I can see. I just don’t see these guys cooperating, do you?

Now, here’s a scary bit:

You have to wonder about this. I mean, what if someone makes a mistake? You know they’re going to claim terrorists were aboard regardless. Yet - they could very well be put in that situation. And, bad as it would be to shoot down a US airplane, shooting down one flying under foreign flag would be … well, “messy” doesn’t quite describe it. A disaster. No matter what proof there might be, someone is going to claim it was fabricated, there’s the diplomatic angle… yes, a grand SNAFU crossed with a FUBAR.

Not that this is really news - they’ve been beating this into the heads of pilots for over two years that they have the authority to shoot to kill. So far, hasn’t happened despite people busting restricted airspace fairly often.

Odd, this is the first mention I have heard of this… What media reports, and where?

Ah. That confirms what I’ve long suspected - Bush is not really running things, he’s doing what he’s told.

You know, I get two feelings about this

  1. They’re using the media to tell the Bad Guys "We’re onto you, and we’re serious - we will kill you short of your goals if you attempt this
  • or -
  1. This is all fuss and bluster and while we may not have our pants down around our ankles anymore maybe we left the back door unlocked or a window open and Something Nasty is going to crawl in that way.

Aldebaran - you say you are reading French sites on this - can you point me to them? I’d like to read them for myself.

Yes, contrary to rumor some of us Americans can read languages other than English.

29

I have an idea. Fit each airplane with a PIN device. Every so often or when the cabin door opens or similar events, the pilot has 30 seconds to enter the PIN or the plane goes into autopilot and cannot be controlled by the pilot. The PIN is not permanent for the plane but is a different one for each flight. A better version would be that the plane goes into autopilot and can be controlled from the fighter planes.

30

I’m confused. I thought that the capture of Saddam made America safer. Now I hear all these stories about cancelled flights and elevated alert levels. Maybe Howard Dean was right after all.

31

So Broomstick, I guess you’re saying they shouldn’t shoot them down. I believe I missed your proposed alternate solution.

32

What if it happened by mistake, with noone around to control it? How is the airplane going to avoid ice, thunderstorms, ash, etc.?

33

Diplomats have long been used as a conduit for intelligence gathering and espionage. Type in “diplomat,kicked out” and see what you get.

I have interviewed a number of people in the transportation industry since 9/11 (and continue to do so). The only joke here is a group of cyber typist who think they know more than the combined intelligence gathering capabilities of the United States Government and its allies. You get your information from a magazine or a TV anchor who is reading something off a tele-prompt that was typed in 30 minutes by someone equally clueless.

It’s hard to say this without being rude but reality went on vacation when this thread started.

34

Well, let see, This is a real tough one to figure out. Let’s say there are 20 bad guys out there and you get rid of 1. Are you safer? Yes. Are you completely safe? No.

Got it now?

35

One thing that really upset me was the news about a BA flight that was escorted by jets, I can´t imagine the reaction of the passengers in that situation, that there´s a possibility that either, someone inside the plane blows it up, or the guys outside shoot it down. That´s some freaking emotional stress to be put through, both for the people inboard and the people awaiting their families/friends at the airport; all that better be founded on very good reasons but, so far, I haven´t seen anything remotely compilant with that.

As for the consecuences of this, to begin with, expect a lot less tourism this year.

36

Yet, many of those cyber-typist beat the US intelligence on the Iraqi WMD affair.
Least you forgot, the US goverment said there where WMD, “a group of cyber typist” said there weren´t, facts have shown the later to be true.
Just because the goverment says so, it isn´t so, necessarily.

37

You must get upset easily. The F-16s can, and most likely did, ‘escort’ the plane from a distance of several miles behind the airliner. Flying right next to the airliner serves no purpose (except in the movies, so you can fit all the planes in one nice shot), but hanging back puts you in a firing position, should the need arise.

38

Yes, I know, the people on the plane may not notice; but when the people awaiting at the airport hear in the news how BA flight XXX is being escorted by fighters… well, try to put yourself in that position.

39

Someone asked why, on the cancelled flights, they didn’t just search the baggage and person of the individuals they suspected. Two possible reasons:
First, a search wouldn’t reveal the person’s intentions. The really nasty thing about the 9/11 hijackings is that they were done with objects the hijackers were allowed to bring on the plane. You would have to detain the suspects until you could do security checks on them.
Second, the fact that you’ve caught some terrorists doesn’t mean you’ve caught them all. Using the example of the 9/11 hijackings again: suppose US officials had noticed that one of the people on the plane that crashed into the WTC was a threat. They pull him off the plane, let the other passengers take off. The remaining hijackers take over the plane and crash it. Alternately, they hold the plane until they do checks on everyone. They (with luck) find the other hijackers, and protect the WTC (from one plane, at least). The upshot: finding a terrorist on a plane is evidence that a terror cell has plans for the plane; you want to disrupt all the plans, not just take out one of the planners.

40

When come back bring reading comprehension.